to lock DS1 and DD1 in separate rooms until they leave home?!

[SheBreathedNearMe]

I am past my wits end.

DS1 is 9. DD1 is 7. They genuinely cannot be in the same room together for more than 5 seconds without one or other screaming/hitting the other.

DS1 is very bright (HLP/gifted) - he is happy to be quiet and when he wants to talk/ask questions they have a point and a reason. Theories are thought out/have logic

DD1 is averagely clever (normal for her age) - she loves to talk/sing/hum generally make noise. she talks and sings for the pure fun of hearing her own voice. she will ask stupid/obvious questions in a clumsy attempt to get a conversation going, she speaks before thinking through what she says.

They have been quite reactive to each other since DD1 was around 4 but the last year to 18 months has escalated into something else. They both now assume the other is deliberately trying to annoy them and react as such. Examples:

So DD1 singing will promote DS1 to scream at her to shut up - but its 6 of one half a dozen of the other whether she was singing for fun or to wind him up.

DS1 will decide he needs to get his shoes out at the exact same moment as DD1 is looking for her's in the shoe box. She holds her ground so he screams and shoves her out of the way and she gets hurt. Either could have waited or moved slightly to the side so both could look in the box.

Generally DS1 is always watching what DD1 is doing, looking for something to tell tales about, just waiting for an excuse to kick off. DD1 will quite often deliberately come and start singing/imaginative playing right next to where DS1 is and under the guise of her toys coversation in her games will try and wind DS1 up.

They are absolutely both to blame as much as each other in different ways.

When either one isnt there we have nothing more than the usual sibling upsets with my other 2 (younger) DC. DS1 and DD1 on their own are a delight and lots of fun and very happy.

They have their own rooms so try and encorage them to play there so the other cant annoy them but they dont want to/refuse/have a major tantrum as they feel they are in trouble when it's the other one's fault.

Please someone give me some advice to break their habit of over-reacting to each other! I cant see how to stop this cycle.

none of these issues at school. it is particular to him and his sister. they just rub each other up the wrong way

Then he can control it but is choosing not too because he most certainly encounters annoying people at school

stuck yes i agree about being bright causing issues which is why i mentioned it in the first place. I can only just still physically manhandle him if i need to, this has to get sorted asap before i have a teenage boy i cant control.

I try not to be a helicopter parent, i like to give them free play/ unsupervised in the garden and to try and work out problems together but this clearly is past that point for those two.

No ideas as in the same boat with my 7 year old twins. Maybe I could swop one with your 7 year old ?!

Using their bedrooms isn't a bad idea. I have the same gap, but younger. When the younger one is being very noisy, or annoying, I tell him to play that in his room. It is clear it isn't a telling off (mine likes to bang a drum, if he was being told off it would be removed, I just explain it is loud, if he wants to do it, take it upstairs). My older one is also easily annoyed. I sometimes point out - she was annoyed with her friend, me, and her brother, who is the common person in all those scenarios? She colours in in her room or plays in the garden to calm down.
Sometimes she's right, he is being annoying. I allow singing but not repeating what the other person is saying, responding only with 'why?' or being mean.
First one to get physical gets a consequence. They are too savvy to do it often.

We're teaching them how to be adults and even if someone's winding you up on purpose then violence is not appropriate behaviour. Sounds like ds needs help coping with being annoyed and having someone provoke him. It's not going to be in his favour in the future if he's easily goaded into losing his temper he needs to practice reacting calmly/ removing himself from the situation. I say to my DC it's ok to feel angry and to say you're angry but it's not ok to hit. Can you sit the kids down every time afterwards and get them problem solving eg ok you want to sing dd but it's making ds feel annoyed what can we do about this? If you write down all their suggestions even silly ones like sound proof the house/ don't sing/ ds move out/ dd sing very quietly/ dd only sing upstairs when ds is downstairs and vice versa then maybe they will come up with something that works for both of them and it will be their idea so they might go with it. I'd go zero tolerance on any violence though. How they learn to resolve conflict and personality clashes now will give them the skills they will take into their future relationships/ work places and friendships. Talking things through and communicating their feelings to find a resolution will stand them in good stead.

Ummm familiar! It's hard but you need to probably work on patience skills with the older dc and understanding of personal space (including sound) with the younger. As they age the flash points do decrease but I'm not going to lie, they still happen as young adults alas

henny i am not victim blaming at all. the violence is not acceptable no matter what DD does and I do say that to him (every freaking time) but equally DD cannot grow up thinking its ok to go and be rude/annoying/insulting to someone on purpose and expect them not to take umbridge about it!

She is causing him to be annoyed, sometimes through deliberate actions.
He is choosing to express that through hitting.|
Neither is right. both need to stop.

This used to be me and my sisters.
Dad used to put us in separate rooms. One upstairs, one downstairs and one in a converted play shed outside.
We'd soon make it up as it was boring on your own.
Dad kept this up through our teens lol.
Even threatened it on my wedding day.
It's normal.

I absolutely do not condone violence and he loses screen time/board game time and gets set to his room to calm down but he has a complete meltdown that it isnt fair

I completely agree he cannot be allowed to hit but i wouldn't put it past DD to diliberately taunt him into it knowing he will get into trouble

Both of statements essentially contain the 'but' as a way to excuse your DS of unacceptable behaviour. But nothing. He is actively choosing his reactions and behaviours and you're sat there saying it's not really his fault because he's so clever.

Reward him for kindness. Explain to him that having meltdowns over losing things only serves to ensure he loses them for longer. Explain to him that you're going to give him a reward chart tied in with his screen time and instead of chores he has to do x, y and z positively with his sister. He can choose not to, but then he chooses no screen time.

Your DC don't have to adore the bones of one another; not many do. But one thing they cannot do is get away with unkindness day in day out. It breeds such resentment that it could last a lifetime.

didip DD1 is a twin herself - whole other bunch of issues come with that dynamic!!

tinprincess i like the idea of getting them to write down suggestions. i will try that.

fudge the first statement was trying to explain that the punishment seems to make DS more angry and hysterical, not as an excuse and i still punish him.

the second is still not excusing his behaviour but DD needs to own her part in it too.

The problem with the violence (other than the obvious) is that only one child hits, which is really really unfair on the the younger smaller one.

How I dealt with this my two.

Sat them down when they were calm. Explained that i will not tolerate violence. I will punish the person who throws the first punch. Every single time. If it gets to hitting then I don’t care what happened before that moment. I will only punish the child that hit. Took a couple of goes but he finally got that I meant it.

Once he didn’t lash out I then dealt with whatever the underlying issue was. Life is much more peaceful now.

You really need to play the whole buy about your DD’s part so carefully.

She’s entitled to be herself in her home without the fear of violence.

In your shoes example she did absolutely nothing wrong, yet you think she did.

You are modelling how relationships should be for her. Don’t teach her that someone who suddenly decides they need something when she uses it (because your DS very probably decided he needed his shoes then purely to pick a row with her) is entitled to shout at her and lash out at her.

Do you ever wonder why the consequence of no screen time makes him more hysterical? I don't mean this provocatively at all; genuinely interested because in our house consequences that ended up like that when the DC were younger tended to be because "I want it, I can't have it so I'll tantrum til I get it". Breaking that habit can be tough but I think where kindness is concerned you're going to need to be tough.

Being smarter than the other DC in the house isn't the only positive attribute; work on the other skills he's going to need in life, kindness, courtesy, self-control, the ability to be irritated and let it roll over him. Those things are going to be lifelong skills.

Instead of seeing it as a punishment turn it around and explain to them both that they have to work together to get the reward; make it about gains not losses. They need to play a boardgame together without arguing for 10 minutes and they can both have 10 minutes of something they love (screen time etc). They have to play in the garden for 10 minutes as a team, build something, challenge each other.

Encourage them to give one another the odd compliment; ask DD what her favourite memory is of her brother and vice versa. Ask them what their favourite thing about their sibling is. Anything so that your DS stops focussing on things he dislikes because, realistically, if his behaviour isn't corrected soon it's going to be a huge struggle to regulate him once hormonal madness kicks in on top of their dislike.

you can both sit there side by side & be quiet -while I have a cup of tea & resist- & than give them bot a long -and boring- lecture so you don't loose your rag -the beginning of the summer holidays- take them out or send them into the garden -where you cant hear them-

You need to work on the violence with your DS first. "She made me hit her" is completely unacceptable. He's way too old to be lashing out. He needs to practice breathing and walking away to find you.

Tell your daughter if she wants to sing/hum she needs to do it in her room. And you need to move her every time so your son trusts you will sort it. This is all about you backing up the rules consistently. Are you sure your son isn't high functioning autistic? The issue with the noise is a flag.

What’s your downstairs space like? Do you have a living room and dining room?

You could (as well as working on your DS’s temper) have one as a quiet zone. Switch around each day.

They can each be in any zone they want, but must respect the zone. So your dd can play st the table, but if it’s quiet day then no singing

Your DS can be in the lounge, but if your DD’s noise annoys him he needs to take himself away

A friend of mine uses that system as one of hers has a real issue with noise. It’s got to be in conjunction with teaching tolerance though. then gradually you can change it down so that instead of just respecting zones they respect each other’s personal space as being quiet or noisy.

Honestly I think it sounds like you are enabling and excusing your son's intolerance and bad behaviour because he's gifted. Your daughter is cranking up the irritation levels because she knows you prefer your son.

In my house the only place you can expect to do something completely undisturbed by others is in your bedroom or in the study. The house is for family time.

I think it's just an age thing tbh and the intelligence/whatever is a red herring. My boys (3 years apart in age) were HORRIBLE to each other around this sort of age. They are now 11 and 8 and in the past year I've noticed a gradual improvement and this year is the first year in ages that I haven't absolutely dreaded the summer holidays, because of the endless bickering.

I have a little different view, I have a ds and dd just over 2 years apart. Ds very bright and very easygoing, dd bright but a typical girl, teasing to the extreme. You who say violence... I begged my ds to react, told him to push her away etc. He never did.

Boys and Girls react in different ways, you can't claim teasing is sort of okay, but the more physical ( boyish) way is a big no no. Of course it is, but both things are equally wrong.

Mine are both start 20ies now and have so far a great relationship, I think this is purely because ds was soo nice, if he had reacted the way boys are 'programmed' to (i know, I know), things might have been different, and my dd would have stopped teasing so much sooner. Actually she is quite embarrassed by her behavior now.

op one of the things that imo starts sibling rivalry, is the old 'getting the most attention from parents'. (Bad attention is better than no attention). When they start off, try to ignore as far as possible. If possible at all give them their own space (room) and tell them it is off limits for sibling. (Young me and my dd would be standing outside singing our hearts out) but that case is so clear who is at fault you can fix it fast. Try setting some very firm boundaries and then disengage as much as possible.

Sorry bit of a rambling post, hope you sort of get my point 😀.

Btw the intelligence bit is important reaction wise. And no I'm not just in awe of my dc, ds is a physicist and dd a vet student 😀. And I love them both dearly.

I think what's really telling in your post is that you've added so much detail and given examples. You are looking at the situation too deeply and from too many angles. It sounds like you feel you can't control the rivalry and feel overwhelmed. This all boils down to the simple fact your DC's don't pay any attention to you when you ask them to stop/be quiet etc. Sibling rivalry is normal but they should cut it out when you get involved and they're not. I think it's time to work on your own relationships with them and the ones with each other are likely to calm right down. Maybe play some family games and take them out individually and reconnect.

At 9 he is years too old to be lashing out. Has he been assessed for ASD spectrum disorders? It often doesn’t get done if a child is HLP but in my family nearly all the boys who have HLP and are super intelligent have ASD. Get him assessed asap if other behavioural strategies don’t work because otherwise he might never be able to function in the real world.

I do tend to agree with others who suggest that your focus should be on your DS’ behaviour. Being clever but awful in terms of behaviour won’t help him beyond school - often less cleverer kids with better social skills outperform in terms of life and success. You need to treat his lack of effective communication skills as seriously as if he were failing something academically.

What does HLP stand for?

It stands for High Learning Potential. But absolutely doesn’t excuse crap behaviour.

The book Calm Parents Happy Siblings literally changed my household overnight.