to lock DS1 and DD1 in separate rooms until they leave home?!

[SheBreathedNearMe]

I am past my wits end.

DS1 is 9. DD1 is 7. They genuinely cannot be in the same room together for more than 5 seconds without one or other screaming/hitting the other.

DS1 is very bright (HLP/gifted) - he is happy to be quiet and when he wants to talk/ask questions they have a point and a reason. Theories are thought out/have logic

DD1 is averagely clever (normal for her age) - she loves to talk/sing/hum generally make noise. she talks and sings for the pure fun of hearing her own voice. she will ask stupid/obvious questions in a clumsy attempt to get a conversation going, she speaks before thinking through what she says.

They have been quite reactive to each other since DD1 was around 4 but the last year to 18 months has escalated into something else. They both now assume the other is deliberately trying to annoy them and react as such. Examples:

So DD1 singing will promote DS1 to scream at her to shut up - but its 6 of one half a dozen of the other whether she was singing for fun or to wind him up.

DS1 will decide he needs to get his shoes out at the exact same moment as DD1 is looking for her's in the shoe box. She holds her ground so he screams and shoves her out of the way and she gets hurt. Either could have waited or moved slightly to the side so both could look in the box.

Generally DS1 is always watching what DD1 is doing, looking for something to tell tales about, just waiting for an excuse to kick off. DD1 will quite often deliberately come and start singing/imaginative playing right next to where DS1 is and under the guise of her toys coversation in her games will try and wind DS1 up.

They are absolutely both to blame as much as each other in different ways.

When either one isnt there we have nothing more than the usual sibling upsets with my other 2 (younger) DC. DS1 and DD1 on their own are a delight and lots of fun and very happy.

They have their own rooms so try and encorage them to play there so the other cant annoy them but they dont want to/refuse/have a major tantrum as they feel they are in trouble when it's the other one's fault.

Please someone give me some advice to break their habit of over-reacting to each other! I cant see how to stop this cycle.

I think your DS is getting a rough deal here. It would drive me insane (even as an adult) to have to live with someone like your DD.
I have a 6 year old and he knows that if he’s being annoying - random chatter, silly noises etc then he needs to go in another room.
Having to put up with loud attention seeking people all day at work, it would be intolerable to have to deal with that at home too.
Most people seem to be saying that you should allow DD to be herself, but at the expense of DS feeling comfortable in his own home?

I saw this book recommended through school newsletter:
www.amazon.co.uk/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-Children/dp/149262988X?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

What I like about it is that it is simple and nips a situation in the bud without a lot of arguing, negotiating and explaining. It’s not about siblings as such but gives general advice. I should probably re-read it before the summer holidays start!

From what you’ve said in that update you need to break the cycle. Either by having quiet and noisy zones splitting where they play equally, or have one of them with you in the same room as you or your DH at all times so that you can always know who was right and who was wrong.

I know you’ll say you have your other kids and things, but you need to break the cycle before your DD is seriously hurt, and before your younger kids also become part of the issue.

I spent almost a month with one of mine (alternatively) having to move whenever I left the room (mine didn’t go for each other, but each other’s stuff). It was rough but it worked as eventually they had the impetus to try and sort it so they didn’t have to move.

Helicopter parenting, 100% zero tolerance and reward jar/love bombing positives all together

notopel THANK YOU!!!! that's exactly it! there needs to be a balance between them! and sometimes I do have to say to DD to just STFU (obviously in more age appropriate terms!!) because it really is incessant.

lyra ok, i will try that with them, if they are not in their room they need to be in the room with me unless they are in their own room. I am really hoping that if i can just get them to realise the other isn't always out to get them it will get better - at the moment its a negative self perpetuating circle, i need to change it to a positive one where they give each other the benefit of the doubt rather than automatically going on the offensive.

I don’t think people get it unless they’re sensitive to this kind of thing. It is really annoying. And the assumption tends to be introverts must adapt to extroverts rather than toning it down.

Definitely tackle the violence, but DD should be learning to understand the impact of her behaviour too

Hmm - 9 year old boy - “she made me hit her because she was singing (etc”.

19 year old man - “she made me rape her because she was wearing a short skirt etc”.

proudest that is a ridiculous comparison.

I cant watch them every second so i have no idea who started it/who's more a fault.

At that point I never cared - tv or whatever was off and they'd be sat where I could see them till I flet they had learnt a lesson or in their separate rooms - got easier when they got their own rooms. They learnt to get on all or argue quietly – also united them against a common enemy me .

Hitting wasn't/isn’t tolerated and no excuse is acceptable.

Person most likely to be upset by humming excess noise is me - so that's done in their rooms or garden. I found around 9 the worse age for all of them TBH - though only just entered the teen years.

I’d probably be taking them out as much a possible during summer – mine behave better outside the house more distractions - and looking for opportunities to separate them over this summer – any groups or clubs they could do separately?

Just make sure you alternate day by day who has to move to keep it fair.

Your other option, we moved to this after the ‘by my side’ option, is that If they are in different spaces then if you’re not there they are not allowed to move from it without asking (to keep them apart)

At the same time games together - you and them - can be a good way to build relationships up. We played cards at least every other day and their relationship really increased as they enjoyed taking turns beating me.

bigkite i have a few bits and pieces they can do seperately and some things to go to with all of them which they will normally behave at.

I think i need to focus more on keeping them both gainfully employed a bit more. i'm generally a fan of letting kids amuse themselves but perhaps this is fanning the flames for these two.

Board games like Forbidden Island are good - you have to work together to beat the game.

I would suggest you tackle the violence 1st - he may be super bright but violence is not acceptable- if he needs a quiet space he can go to his room...(you do really sound liek you favour him sorry (and I am v v noise intolerant but violence is not the answer)
If he needs quiet without being in his room could he have audible books/headphone type thing....

DD goes into his room - she is punished - that is his space...but she alos needs to learn control - I'm sure she doesnt sing in class at school either so can contain it too - so whether you have a watch word for her -that means enough singing
maybe she goes to her room for a sing then...

when loving in close proximity awareness and social space and skills are important- there are a lot of you so I;m afraid you are just oing to have to manage it...

unfortunelty not all arguing siblings get on when their older....... havent spoken to my brother in years.... we used to fight like cat and dog..... I feel for my mum a bit ...but she didnt have mumsnet for ideas!
but it was straightfroward sibling rivalry really....

They only behave like this at home because there is no clear consequence to their actions. They would not behave like this at school.

I would encourage jobs the pair have to work together to do to get a reward, lots of praise for being nice and kind to each other.

I would also talk to both children and tell them you expect their behaviour to change rapidly otherwise their favourite things will be removed until proven they can play together.

I do think you have to deal with the "she was annoying me so I hit her/reacted" thing. At secondary school, this won't fly, and there are kids who are very good at goading others to get a reaction- obviously this isn't right, but being able to walk away from a situation that's annoying you and or/defuse a situation is a life skill in my opinion.

As your DS is intelligent, you should be able to explain this to him. There will be people in life (not just his sister) who annoy him, and there will be times when he will have to deal with them without violence or even by staying polite.

Also point out that if he doesn't lash out/get violent then a) you can punish DD if she does something wrong and b) she's less likely to behave in these ways if she's genuinely just doing it to get a reaction.

That said, I do think it's worth having a designated "quiet room/quiet zone" in the house too, so he has somewhere to get away from it all.

If you can, it may be good to have an honest chat with her one on one to see if you can find out why she behaves the way she does. It does sound like her behaviour can be quite attention seeking. What is she like at school? Do you think she is generally happy?

I think you need to be very careful to protect your DD's self esteem. Younger children often feel stupid in comparison to their older siblings because their older siblings can do more. This can affect how much they try and their overall confidence. In your case it's magnified because her older sibling is very bright (and probably very aware of that). If she's being called stupid by her brother, that adds to the issue. If you're saying or implying or showingthat her brother is very clever and that's why he can't stand her nonsense, that's much worse. I feel very sorry for your daughter.

Whilst I agree with all the PPs regarding violence and your DS’s need to learn tolerance, it is not on if your DD goes in to wind him up deliberately. So if he’s sitting playing or reading in his own space and she decides to invade his space, stand next to him making noise, she’s doing it on purpose to wind him up and get a rise out of him. I can’t be the only little sister who did this to provoke their older brother I’m sure.

Walking past him singing is not deliberate, being in his space is. I like the idea of the designated quiet room. Big notice on the door, this room is for people who wish to play quietly, please sing elsewhere.

If there is another family room your DD isn’t being excluded, she just needs to take her noise elsewhere. Same as your DS can’t hit people when he likes eg at school, your DD can’t be allowed to sing whenever she likes in the classroom, so must be able to contain it sometimes.

Also speak to your DS about how much more satisfying it would be for him not to give his sister the satisfaction of a reaction. If that’s what she’s trying for, don’t give it. She will give up when he consistently fails to react.

Most people seem to be saying that you should allow DD to be herself, but at the expense of DS feeling comfortable in his own home?

No, they're saying that her right to be unhurt in her own home comes before his right to feel comfortable.

If he responded proportionately (a) she would be more likely to listen (and/or) less.likely to goad and (b) then she would be the one behaving badly, so could get appropriate consequences. Sounds like op is on it in any case.

Mine are in a bickering phase, so I feel your pain. They sound quite similar too, in that DS is the older and v intellectual, DD is more extrovert and noisy. My advice is not to treat is as a problem between the two of them, but a wider issue about your family values and obeying you as parent when told not to do things. How they feel about each other can never be a get-out clause. They need to stop doing whatever you tell them to stop doing. Also try a family meeting and ask them whether they want the relationship to be better and what they are prepared to concede to achieve that.

So DD1 singing will promote DS1 to scream at her to shut up
Ds1 screaming is unacceptable. Dd1 is not doing anything wrong here.

DS1 will decide he needs to get his shoes out at the exact same moment as DD1 is looking for her's in the shoe box. She holds her ground so he screams and shoves her out of the way and she gets hurt. Either could have waited or moved slightly to the side so both could look in the box
Ds1 is being impatient and rude. Dd1 was there first, she should be allowed to finish her task and ds1 should be told to wait.

DS cannot get past the point that if DD didn't annoy him he wouldn't lash out
Ds1 should be punished every time he lashes out.

Your opening paragraphs about your two children are really telling. You are so so much more positive about ds, dd you basically describe as average and a bit annoying. I think you need to watch yourself and how you are responding to them. I also suspect that you actually find your dd irritating too.

regan there is no way i would make any of my children specifically aware of their relative intelligence. And i am very pro-active about pointing out their different strengths - its something that becomes second nature when you have twins as its so much harder to escape direct comparison. I never present her nature as a problem, just that sometimes others prefer quiet so could she sing in her room. i try and balance that with times where i ask DS to go to his room if he wants quiet. i make a conscious effort not to favour one over the other.

earlymodern that's an interesting perspective that i have lost along the way - that its about sticking to my house rules, not about each other. will try and refocus on this.

didius it is just plain fact that DS is 'exceeding' where DD is 'expected' level to use their school report lingo. stating that is not favouritism its just fact and i do not state that fact to them, but it can be relevant in how issues are approached with them. i find all my children delightful and irritating in pretty equal measure ! Yes sometimes DD's constant noise is irritating. but not more irritating that DS's insistence that when i said no jumping on the bed the fact he is hopping means he is doing nothing wrong. i was merely trying to give a quick roundup of the differences between each child.

I agree with others that your son's behaviour is more of an issue - he's actually making it harder to address your daughters behaviour or discipline her in any way, because as soon as your son turns violent it becomes inappropriate to blame her for what has happened.

I think you really need to separate the fact that it irritates her brother to the point of violence from how you deal with your daughter. To teach her that it's ok for people to abuse her if she's openly herself and annoys them would be extremely detrimental, but to teach her that you need to be generally considerate of the people around you and whether they will want to be exposed to constant noise etc is an appropriate lesson at her age. It's no different from saying "inside voices" or asking children not to shout over other people talking, which we do from a younger age than she is.

Unfortunately, I don't think you can berate your daughter for her behaviour whilst your son's behaviour is confusing matters, because you cannot tell someone off that has just been hit for singing. He needs to first understand that only when he stops lashing out physically will you take seriously him feeling annoyed by his sister. He has no right to feel hard done by as soon as he hits and he needs to learn that before she can learn to be more considerate without feeling like you feel she deserves to be hit for it.

Are you scared of DS1?

Genuine question, 9 year olds can hit hard. Are you afraid to upset him because of his reaction?