to lock DS1 and DD1 in separate rooms until they leave home?!

[SheBreathedNearMe]

I am past my wits end.

DS1 is 9. DD1 is 7. They genuinely cannot be in the same room together for more than 5 seconds without one or other screaming/hitting the other.

DS1 is very bright (HLP/gifted) - he is happy to be quiet and when he wants to talk/ask questions they have a point and a reason. Theories are thought out/have logic

DD1 is averagely clever (normal for her age) - she loves to talk/sing/hum generally make noise. she talks and sings for the pure fun of hearing her own voice. she will ask stupid/obvious questions in a clumsy attempt to get a conversation going, she speaks before thinking through what she says.

They have been quite reactive to each other since DD1 was around 4 but the last year to 18 months has escalated into something else. They both now assume the other is deliberately trying to annoy them and react as such. Examples:

So DD1 singing will promote DS1 to scream at her to shut up - but its 6 of one half a dozen of the other whether she was singing for fun or to wind him up.

DS1 will decide he needs to get his shoes out at the exact same moment as DD1 is looking for her's in the shoe box. She holds her ground so he screams and shoves her out of the way and she gets hurt. Either could have waited or moved slightly to the side so both could look in the box.

Generally DS1 is always watching what DD1 is doing, looking for something to tell tales about, just waiting for an excuse to kick off. DD1 will quite often deliberately come and start singing/imaginative playing right next to where DS1 is and under the guise of her toys coversation in her games will try and wind DS1 up.

They are absolutely both to blame as much as each other in different ways.

When either one isnt there we have nothing more than the usual sibling upsets with my other 2 (younger) DC. DS1 and DD1 on their own are a delight and lots of fun and very happy.

They have their own rooms so try and encorage them to play there so the other cant annoy them but they dont want to/refuse/have a major tantrum as they feel they are in trouble when it's the other one's fault.

Please someone give me some advice to break their habit of over-reacting to each other! I cant see how to stop this cycle.

AE18 is talking a lot of sense. Your DS is very intelligent you say so he should be able to understand that his behaviour needs to be reigned in before you can sort DD's out.

Ds is exceeding at school but boy is he lacking social skills.
Dont go around saying how intelligent your ds is, and how dumb questions your dd is asking.

Seperate. Punish(both).read books. Follow seminars.

And stop highlighting your ds's "booksmartness". Start highlighting his lack of empathy/getting along/acting his age/ owning up to what he does etc.

Maybe try to sit with them both. Ask what is bothering them and how they feel it could be sorted. Then let them stick to their own rules.

Also stop blah blah blahing about how smart your ds is and how annoying your dd is.

Sounds like me and my brother, down to the fact that my mother clearly favoured him and I was the dippy, annoying one who would him up deliberately (according to everyone else. I definitely didn't and lived in fear of his temper.)

Still hate him now, as he is so unpredictable and thinks everyone should pander to him.

I totally repeated my self there. Probably because i am like your dd. Average intelligence

Are you on any HLP support groups? There are some on Facebook and Potential Plus UK is great as an organisation.

While nothing excuses violence, there are issues with being HLP which mean this isn’t an uncommon scenario. And when you get people saying “he’s highly intelligent, he should understand this emotional thing” it’s so frustrating.

I’ve got two HLP boys, 9 and 6, and the younger one can deliberately wind the older one up just by raising his eyebrow in a certain way. It’s exhausting when they’re in that mood.

Reading around the emotional issues surrounding HLP helped me understand things from their point of view which has helped.

I am surprised at your examples, because they both sound like your ds behaving badly, not the dc being as bad as each other.

I think you sound be ensuring you don't blame your dd for your ds' behaviour. It sounds as though your ds needs clear consequences for his behaviour and maybe some coaching in social skills and managing his emotions.

If it helps, i am also 'average intelligence'!!!

boule thank you for your post, grateful that someone understands the issues of HLP. I have a good friend who has a HLP son who is a great source of advice (She is on potential plus, i cant afford to join). i will look for some FB groups though.

Had a talk with DS and DD this morning. Made it clear that the violence will always be punished irrelevant of provocation. Have told them they cannot be in the same room alone for the time being. which is apparently most unfair. I spoke to DS about how he would feel if his uncle hit me when i annoyed him, i think that got through to him a bit.

We will see how this goes.

Have sent DD up to brush teeth etc first and kept DS with me.

Sounds like instead of separating them, you should try and get them to do some fun activities together. So they can remember what they originally liked about each other. The more you separate them, the worse it will get.

In my experience I find a lot kids this age to be this way, emotionally volatile and taking umbrage if someone looks at them wrong. Bloody good fun but super emotional.

Like EarlyModernParent I would focus as a family on having to compromise, because thats what happens in families and in life. Your DS seems to really need to deal with his sister making noise and taking up space and and less so your DD needs to learn to give her brother space and quiet sometimes. It's fine to tell both off and also remember that you're the boss, its coming across like your DS has a decent amount of control with worry he'll flip his lid etc. Or do what my mum did, lock them outside don't underestimate the power of a common enemy
It must be hard with HLP some big kid thoughts and little kid emotions. I've only dealt with it in one family with slightly older kids and it was more verbal nastiness although it did get physical a time or two.

My favourite reply to bed jumping/hopping kinda thing is 'Thank you Captain Pedantic, now get off' cause it drives me nuts as well

OP I absolutely sympathise with you having a DS with HLP. My DS1 who is almost 5 also has HLP and has recently been diagnosed with savant syndrome. It's exhausting. Potential Plus UK taught me that I was using his HLP as an excuse for his poor social and emotional skills a lot of the time, which was not the case. They are no more badly behaved than any other child. That was the turning point for me, his poor behaviour and lashing out was usually because he was under stimulated. He never felt challenged at home. Trying to keep up with that and find constant new things for him to do, without setting him up for failure, is bloody hard. But I find that when he is well stimulated, his behaviour is perfect. Even when his baby brother is trying to climb all over him! We're trying to find that balance of helping him feel challenged, but also that it's not practical for him to feel like that all the time. Some times he has to have down time and bog standard play time. Big jigsaw puzzles tend to help overlap the feeling of being challenged and just playing. Have you ever been in touch with Potential Plus UK? I really recommend it if not, they are very helpful. Improving social skills is a work in progress and nursery have been very helpful in working with us on that. Make sure you speak to the school about his behaviour, even if he's generally well behaved there, to have the same strategies at both school and home would be very helpful.

The Parenting High Potential group on Facebook is great, as is the PPUK Facebook group which you can join even if not a member.

Good luck with the strategies, hope they work.

Mine are the same! 15 and 14 now
Nothings changed

Are you me?? This is my children to a T but they are a bit younger right now.
They do at the moment enjoy playing together for a few minutes before the fighting starts but it inevitably starts .
My DS1 just like yours would prefer to have quiet time and asks the same type of questions whereas my DD1 loves to sing and ask silly questions just to be funny and my DS1 gets wound up by it. She very strong willed too so she does what she wants.
sorry I didn't have advice but just wanted to say you're not alone and I know how frustrating it is

well that went well. DS1 punched DS2 before they had even got in the car after school

I have sent DS1 to his room and told him no game time tonight and removed a token from his reward jar. he has screamed and crashed around the house for the last hour. he is finally in his room but still not changed or sorted his pe kit as asked.

Have kept the other DC with me and outside so he cannot get at them.

So much for the talk we had this morning then.

What do i do when he refuses to go to his room? It would be dangerous for me to physically manhandle him up the stairs. Plus he would just come out again. i left him sneaking about the place as long as he didn't come into the family space with the rest of us, when he did i calmly pointed out that he would be spending time in his room, whether he did that now or later was up to him. he has now given in but is sporadically shouting when can he come down.

I want to cry.

my brother and I were like this throughout our teens (but it did stop when we hit about 18 if that helps!). From my perspective, my brother deliberately did things to wind me up - little stuff such as changing the channel when I was watching tv and the like. He then took great delight in watching me scream and shout (i was a loud child) and then i got into trouble. I always remember my mum said that she would speak to him about his behaviour but really the only thing that would stop it - as she couldn't watch us both full time - was for me to change my reaction to him. The times I managed to keep my temper under control and not rise to him, it definitely stopped things much faster than normal and i was smug that i'd 'won' ! maybe something worth trying?

This is a hard time of year- hot, tired kids- most kids find it hard to manage at teh end of term......did you check the hangry/thirsty stuff before getting to teh car...

just leave him to cool down - make sure he has snack/drink
then it is just calm repeat no violence, calm repeat no violence -
it just isnt acceptable but you are probably on damage limitation until end of term..
are there lots of events or stuff going on at the moment - I would suggest you do as little as possible and cancel anything not essential

a number of friends have had success with
123 magic - as an approach...
www.amazon.co.uk/s?ref=nb_sb_noss_2&k=123+magic&tag=mumsnetforu03-21

You can use the same approach with all the kids...and have just spotted they also have a teen version.... consistency is teh key - you really dont want teh other DC seeing him getting away with violence...

What do you mean it would be dangerous for you to manhandle him?

You have a major problem and I hope you are beginning to see that.

Your DS has an awful temper, lashes out at his siblings, has no respect for you and you are scared of him. Which he probably knows and is why he ignores you.

If you’ve sent him to his room then you shouldn’t be ignoring him leaving his room. You are letting him disrespect you.

With the room thing a timer might work. Just make sure it’s not one that he can tweak. Keep it somewhere you can easily access so you can stop it each time he leaves his room (or have a set time that you add for each time he leaves his room)

I agree with what people are saying

Generally

But if you DS is being wound up that should also get sanctioned.

As an example my goady fuckwit arsehole of a brother (no bias at all LOL) would wind me up no end and he knew that if he could get me to flip out, he would get away with it.

I would end up in loads of trouble and he would be smirking with my parents extolling how much he (the poor little soul) had to put up with.

He is still a goady fucking arsehole, the difference is that I am no longer trapped inside a building with someone that says "you were violent, you were to wholly to blame".

I can walk away, and have done, and I am also after many years LC instead of NC with him. but I still refuse to be in the same room as him.

I will also point out that the only times that I have ever been violent have been with my brother.

I'd leave him up there all evening. At his age there really is no excuse for an all out tantrum. He wouldn't do it at school because he knows he wouldn't get away with it. He's doing it with you because he thinks it'll work and he's more likely to get his own way. Be consistent and show him that you say what you mean and mean what you say.

Just FYI

I am not saying that DD is doing this deliberately, but there is the possibility of swinging to far the other way.

I think that you did the right thing sanctioning your ds, 8 think that's really bad behaviour.

I work with teenagers in a care home. We manage situations where the dc are meant to be having time out in their rooms but won't go, or keep coming out, by restarting the time they have to be there each time they come out. So if your ds is meant to be in his room for half an hour the time doesn't start until he goes up, and it gets restarted each time he sneaks out.

I think you need to let your ds see that you will be firm in your boundaries.

Unless you know who did (very obviously) then everytime it happens you seperate then and give a consequence. Don't listen to who did what or how unless one has pushed a boundary like physical behaviour. It has happened, it shouldn't happen and both need to stop.

Is it obvious to her that he thinks she's stupid?

Sorry if I've missed it, but where is their father with regard to their behaviour/discipline?