to lock DS1 and DD1 in separate rooms until they leave home?!

[SheBreathedNearMe]

I am past my wits end.

DS1 is 9. DD1 is 7. They genuinely cannot be in the same room together for more than 5 seconds without one or other screaming/hitting the other.

DS1 is very bright (HLP/gifted) - he is happy to be quiet and when he wants to talk/ask questions they have a point and a reason. Theories are thought out/have logic

DD1 is averagely clever (normal for her age) - she loves to talk/sing/hum generally make noise. she talks and sings for the pure fun of hearing her own voice. she will ask stupid/obvious questions in a clumsy attempt to get a conversation going, she speaks before thinking through what she says.

They have been quite reactive to each other since DD1 was around 4 but the last year to 18 months has escalated into something else. They both now assume the other is deliberately trying to annoy them and react as such. Examples:

So DD1 singing will promote DS1 to scream at her to shut up - but its 6 of one half a dozen of the other whether she was singing for fun or to wind him up.

DS1 will decide he needs to get his shoes out at the exact same moment as DD1 is looking for her's in the shoe box. She holds her ground so he screams and shoves her out of the way and she gets hurt. Either could have waited or moved slightly to the side so both could look in the box.

Generally DS1 is always watching what DD1 is doing, looking for something to tell tales about, just waiting for an excuse to kick off. DD1 will quite often deliberately come and start singing/imaginative playing right next to where DS1 is and under the guise of her toys coversation in her games will try and wind DS1 up.

They are absolutely both to blame as much as each other in different ways.

When either one isnt there we have nothing more than the usual sibling upsets with my other 2 (younger) DC. DS1 and DD1 on their own are a delight and lots of fun and very happy.

They have their own rooms so try and encorage them to play there so the other cant annoy them but they dont want to/refuse/have a major tantrum as they feel they are in trouble when it's the other one's fault.

Please someone give me some advice to break their habit of over-reacting to each other! I cant see how to stop this cycle.

You have to stand firm today, tomorrow etc. until he learns his behaviour will not be tolerated.

If I read that right, then you all waited outside with your other three kids whist your 9 year old roamed and crashed around the house for an hour. Only then did he go to his room. He is completely dominating you, the space and his younger siblings. You have to get a grip on this.

I would go for a) a much more drastic consequence for hitting and then refusing to go to the room than a token being removed! One of mine had her last tantrum age about 8 when I stated that for every time she threw something or lashed out (even if it didn't make contact), it would be one day without a computer. We got to 9 days and did the consequence and she never ever threw anything again. Zero tolerance on harming property or people, it's the bottom line. You need to find a consequence he actually cares about, clearly it isn't a token and b) then calm talking and one-to-one time with him if possible to talk about managing emotions/expressing self. A bit of love bombing to make it clear you still love him, but don't like his behavior. But with a bottom line that you cannot hurt others.

You can't have a 9 year old boy punching a 7 year old child. Fast forward a few years, it's actually frightening.

Reading your initial post it’s pretty obvious the DS is favoured, also obvious he’s the worst behaved; looking for ways to instigate a fight, hitting his sister. He sounds quite a manipulative child, your DD is only 7 and shouldn’t have to be on eggshells in case her precious brother is annoyed.

You need proper help here OP. Not a bunch of random mums on the Internet. You're on the brink of full fledged disaster with your eldest son. Honestly, I'd find a child psychologist to help you. In the meantime I'd take away all his screen time and he has to earn it back by being non violent for at least a week. And even then I'd only be giving it back in tiny increments. You cannot let him terrorise you and your younger kids. I know it's not popular on MN but I'd be way louder and scarier than him. You have to be able to back him down.

A lot of posters seem to be biased in favour of the girl, girls can be very irritating

A lot of posters seem to be biased in favour of the girl, girls can be very irritating

So can boys. And being irritated is no excuse for violence, particularly when said violence is visited on someone younger and therefore probably smaller and weaker than you. If allowed to continue, it teaches DD that she can expect to be hit by males if they deem her irritating and that if this happens she may have deserved it. It teaches DS that violence may be used to keep girls in line or respond to irritation. It needs to be stopped, and the older, violent sibling is more at fault, hence I side with the DD.

OP sorry you've had such a shitty day, I hope it calmed down for the evening
Tomorrows a new day, fingers crossed, you can do it!

A pp described her daughter as a typical girl..she loves to tease eh what? I have 6 siblings and two children not one of them is a typical boy or girl.. I don’t know how people can still buy into or believe there is such thing as a typical boy or girl..
Anyway my 7 year old son is a handful.. he has always been difficult. He used to lash out physically if his older sister annoyed him.. funny how he never hit or attempted to hit his friends at school
The only thing I haven’t been able to get a handle of is his moaning.. it isn’t everyday but he goes through phases. Some weeks it’s all week but then he’ll be his usual happy self. It’s exhausting. He is very bright, I wonder if he sometimes gets bored and decides to act like a shit. It isn’t tolerated and I came down very hard on violence.
Sorry op it does sound like you favour your son.. I can remember a time I tip toed around my ds because it was easier to pander to him than cause a meltdown

You need to nip this violence in the bud and fast. My brother behaved the same way - got annoyed at me and my sisters for daring to exist in his presence/disagree with him and he was violent. One memorable moment we were all (including parents) sat watching TV, sister said something he didn't like so he went to punch her full in the face. I don't know how but I caught his punch. My parents did nothing.

My brother is a controlling bully and a total waste of space as an adult and I fully blame my parents for not getting a handle on his behaviour when he was a pre-teen/teenager. Don't let your DS go the same way, it would be a shame for him and all of you.

I'd suggest seeing a child psychologist or a therapist for your ds alone and perhaps you and your husband as well.

Perhaps I'm over dramatising this and my own experience with my brother has affected my judgement too much. Those are my thoughts though and what I'd do if my DS behaved as yours does.

well that went well. DS1 punched DS2 before they had even got in the car after school sad. I have sent DS1 to his room and told him no game time tonight and removed a token from his reward jar. he has screamed and crashed around the house for the last hour. he is finally in his room but still not changed or sorted his pe kit as asked.

Everything you have posted about your son is extremely concerning.

Your reaction to blame your daughter for being physically abused as "she's annoying him" is destructive.

You keep saying your son is intelligent and mature yet he is behaving like a much younger child with NO impulse control.

I would advise you to seek help in regards to your son temper as this is not 'normal' nor are you providing a safe environment for your daughter.

Your son is 9 but soon he will grow and do you want a teenage boy causing havoc in your home? Sort it out now.

well that went well. DS1 punched DS2 before they had even got in the car after school

I have sent DS1 to his room and told him no game time tonight and removed a token from his reward jar. he has screamed and crashed around the house for the last hour. he is finally in his room but still not changed or sorted his pe kit

Why on earth did he punch his brother? This isn’t even the sibling he has the issues with, is it?

And why didn’t he get up the stairs on the double when you told him to? And now he’s shouting down at you?

Your daughter is not the problem in this scenario, despite your attempts to frame it as six of the one, half a dozen of the other.

In your latest post, you sound almost frightened of your son’s temper. He clearly doesn’t appear to have any respect for your attempts to discipline him.

ukgift2016 he's not behaving as a child, he's at the age where he's starting to behave like a man. It's clear he can control his impulses because he's not getting into fights at school. With his family he just chooses not to control himself, classic abusive male behaviour. I saw the same happen with my brother around puberty.

Hi OP, we had similar issues with DS1 who is also been assessed as HS/gifted and I do think it is relevant but not necessarily in the way you are thinking.

It is really common for children who are gifted to have emotional delays. They over-rely on their sense of logic to navigate the world around them because they don't have the emotional maturity. However, there is nothing less logical than other children which is where they often get overwhelmed by their frustration.

Our DS would turn his frustration onto himself through self harm which is when we got help and I can't describe what a difference it has made. The therapist was fantastic and also educated us a lot about how to help and support him and he is like a different child. Siblings annoy each other, it is perfectly normal. But his reactions are not normal and you need help finding a strategy which helps him cope.

I would recommend finding a calm, quiet opportunity away from the other children and open a dialogue with him. Give him a chance to vent his frustrations calmly and verbally to you.

Our DS is very self aware and once we had the chance to talk and listen, he actually had some good ideas for himself about how to deal with things. He sees his bedroom as his safe haven, not a punishment and will often take himself there and put on headphones to listen to an audiobook and play lego when he starts to feel stressed. When I see him getting would up, I ask if he would like a bit of time on his own and he often says yes, grateful that we have opened up an escape route for him.

DS is getting insensed by the fact he feels pushed to violence by her and she gets no punishment for irritating him/being awkward

I do think you need to be really firm on this though. There is never justification for violence and it is never the fault of the child who has been hit, no matter how annoying they are.

You know ds1’s behaviour yesterday was awful and you need to make the consequence stick.

Not to excuse that, but end of term for HLP kids can be a real trigger - all ‘fun’ and nothing for their brain to do, it creates under-exercised, snappy unpleasantness. Can you get him some intellectual stimulation (I’ve used Dragonbox algebra, Duolingo and other similar apps, if I’ve had no time for a trip to somewhere interesting) over the next few days and see if that helps? Still hold the line on behaviour, but make sure he gets mental as well as physical exercise.

I’ve also had some success with talking (at a calm time) about self control, and my expectations around that. And then modelling it eg “Please stop singing dd, I really need some quiet right now”. “Dd, I asked you to stop singing, please can you do so, or do it somewhere else, otherwise I will move but then you won’t get any lunch as I won’t be in the kitchen”.

I have zero tolerance on violence too but DS is getting insensed by the fact he feels pushed to violence by her and she gets no punishment for irritating him/being awkward.

That's a life lesson he HAS to learn. He is going to spend his life with people who are less intelligent and who will annoy him.

I'd bet he doesn't hit you or his teachers.

You need zero tolerance on the violence. To all violence, my brother stopped hitting me but brought his friends round to do it instead.

OP my mum had a theory and I think it might be true, that nature sets up siblings of the opposite sex to hate each other during puberty as a way to increase the gene pool.

I know this is going to sound like the last thing you need but can you afford Karate or Judo classes for them?

They would start on a level, get to take out any aggression and get some exercise. Using moves outside the class is frowned upon. It's mentally stimulating as well so will give your DS1 something to think about.

rounding i hadn't thought that it could be escalating through end of term boredom.

Up to now i have been religiously sticking to the keep calm and dont get into a shouting match advice but it seems that to him he views that as weakness and isn't responding to it as the other DC do.

I spoke with him again last night, laid down the clear path of consequences and have taken his subscription engineering kit and told him he can have it after a week of no violence.

I sent him upstairs to do teeth etc before the others (sharing the sink is often a pinch point for all DC). He tried to refuse so instead of calm i went straight in with 'loud, firm, very angry, do not mess with me voice and crazy eyes' and say ' you will go and brush your teeth now, because I have told you to. i am your parent, you are the child and you WILL do as I tell you'. He went straight away and although sulky he has got completely ready for school and completed his morning jobs without further issue. Hew is now playing nicely with DS2.

I have moved some of DD1's favourite toys to her room and made it clear to her that when she wants to play her loud singing games, her room is the place for it.

Explained to all DC that you cannot come into a family space and expect everyone to accept you changing the dynamic (DD already singing, DS cannot come in and ask her to stop, or DS playing quietly, DD cannnot come in and start singing next to him).

I am not scared of DS. By dangerous to manhandle him i mean if he really flipped out on teh stairs there is a real chance he would make us both fall, i have a weak leg on one side and he could easily overbalance me. not that i am scared of him.

DH works long hours so most of dealing with DS falls to me. DS will refuse to DH too but not as much.

Lets see how today goes.

I will look into councilling. martial arts is a good suggestion, will look at that too.

Well done OP, that all sounds like a very fair and balanced response

I think you're handling it well.

I suspect there's probably a fair bit of boundary testing going on as well as end of term tiredness.

I suspect there will be more incidents before he finally starts behaving as you'd want - when it finally clicks you are not tolerating this behaviour and it comes with negative consequences for him.

It might be a long summer - so praise any good behaviour where you can and keep them busier than normal so less time to pick fights at least till it settles - that would be my advice anyway.

You punish him like he is a 2yo
Give him proper cosequences!
Not a "go to your room." And taking a token 😂.

You are walking on eggshells and creating something that is not going to end well...

Give me some example consequences? He does not have a phone/console or similar. He earns computer time on DH’s old PS2 by earning good behaviour tokens through the week (funnily enough it’s been weeks since he earned any). I have taken away his board game time with DH and I after the others are in bed. What consequences would you suggest?

He earns computer time on DH’s old PS2 by earning good behaviour tokens through the week (funnily enough it’s been weeks since he earned any) this is the problem. He must be doing something right in several weeks! Or daily actually. He might be polite, not react to something, help with something, play nicely for 5 min with a sibling, do what he was asked first time- surely he must be doing fine some of the time.

If he isn't getting any time on the computer anyway, then taking a token away is meaningless.

I would not take away board time with mum and dad every day, I would do it on the day in question. If he hits, it's straight to his room to calm down and think things through, an apology to the child in question and a consequence of something he really loves. IF there's nothing in his life that is enjoyable, then that's quite worrying. You also have to let him have a path to behaving well and getting attention for that.

Careful with some of these consequences. If he loses a week of something on day one, then what stops him doing it on day two and beyond?

Short, relevant punishments. Extend each day if no improvement.

So- an obvious consequence of hitting is that you can't play with everyone else for a set amount of time, or you can't go on a day out that is planned as your behaviour isn't good enough.

But it's worrying he isn't even 'good enough' to go on the playstation now- I really don't believe this, I think you need to catch him being good as my mum used to say and direct attention towards that as at the moment all the attention is on him endlessly when he does bad things and it's probably worth it for him (in a family situation, kids will do all types of things to get attention!)

The DC all have reward tubes, they earn tokens for good, loose them for bad, if they have enough tokens at the end of the week they earn an hour of PlayStation time. So of course he earns some but loses them again.

His favourite things are books and being outside/nature - I can’t see how I can ban him reading though, I don’t want to risk him not reading for fun anymore. And he reads when sent to his room to calm down. Also it seems counter intuitive to stop him going outside! Obviously i do stop him When he’s sent to his room but to say ‘you can’t go outside at the weekemd’ Just seems wrong.

He doesn’t have a particular favourite toy or game.

They don’t watch tv during the week anyway and at this time of year rarely at weekends either as they are outside.

I have taken his engineering kit until he can do a whole week with no violence as that is probably his favourite thing to do.

Banning days out is possible but it would also mean the other DC miss out over the holidays.