To consider ending a 15 year + friendship because of this? **Potentially Distressing**

[NaviSprite]

I’ll try to be short as I’m torn between absolutely seething and just gobsmacked.

Today a person I have known since I was eleven years old (roughly) hit a very raw nerve.

I was out with her and my toddler twins. A nice older lady complimented them and I politely said thank you, then she asked did I have any other children. I explained gently that I have three children. My lovely twins and my baby boy who never got to experience life (he was stillborn at 42 weeks - earlier this year). My friend then cut into the very short polite chat and said “but he doesn’t count.”

She actually said my third child, my second son, didn’t count. Because he isn’t with us.

This friend has children of her own (home with their Dad today) and she had relatively straight forward pregnancies and births with them, which I’m happy for.

My twins were very premature and low birth weight, they fought hard to make it through (they’re thriving now and I’m so proud) and she has often made odd comments whenever they have received compliments too.

Best example is when an acquaintance said how advanced they were.

Thing is they seem that way to observers because they’re still very small for their age and so to other people who don’t know much about them, they seem to be younger than 20 months old and so what is regular for most toddlers to do, seems impressive because people don’t know that’s how old they are (if that makes sense?).

I’m actually a little uncomfortable with compliments in general so I just go with the default smile and say thank you approach.

My friend then said “they’re 20mo, when my DD was that age she was already walking and saying at least 20 different words.”

I’ve tried thinking about things from her perspective but I’m at a bit of a loss and so very hurt. I don’t know if this is her weird version of a competition. She doesn’t bring her children when she comes to visit so I don’t think it’s a case of my twins taking attention away from her DC... I just don’t get it.

But the comment today about my stillborn son, that cut deep and I don’t know that I can forgive it.

I asked why she said he “didn’t count”. Her reply was “Well you never really had him”.

So I guess my post wasn’t that short (sorry!).

My question is, should I consider the friendship over? Or am I overreacting?

The more I think about it, she has often made somewhat cold remarks but I think today it finally hit me just how harsh she can be....

Christopher counts

And if you’re around the West Midlands and would ever like some Mum friends who aren’t complete bitches then PM me and you’ll be invited

Of course your son counts. However, when the old lady asked you if you have other children she clearly meant do you have others who are living. I don't think I would answer that I have 3 children if one had died.

I may say that I just have the twins although, sadly, I'd lost my stillborn son earlier in the year. I just wouldn't say that I have 3 children.

I think your friend was very clumsy in what she said but think she was just aware of what the old lady was actually asking.

You probably just had a need to tell someone because it is such a recent and huge loss. I'm wondering if you need to have some bereavement counselling for your loss?

I probably wouldn't trust my emotions too much in the circumstances but would let a good friend know how I felt.

You may forget what people say, but you never forget how they make you feel. I wouldn’t continue being friends with someone who was capable of saying things like that.

Sorry for your loss although I agree with Idontwanttotalk that’s immediately how I took the friends comment.

Reading this has brought a proper
Lump to my throat. Of COURSE he counts. He counts in every possible way and you absolutely DID have him. For the shortest, most heartbreaking amount of time, but he is real in every possible way. This is not a friend. Sometimes we hold onto friendships long after they really expire for a lot of different reasons but someone who does not 'get' this is not worth your time or energy.

Cherish all the members of your family, find some new friends and big hugs lovely. Xx

Christopher is and will always be part of you and your life, I cannot understand why a 'friend' would be so insensitive - can you bring it to yourself to speak to her about how much hurt she has caused (more for closure for you about this comment than for her).

I am so sorry for your loss, Although I have never experienced this, close friends have and I can see how they love with this heartbreak.

God bless you and god bless Christopher.

I also think this whole saying 'have / had' debate is irrelevant. You expressed what felt right to you and a friend should have enough love and respect for you to listen to you count little Christopher in the 'have' category without nit picking. It's irrelevant it that's not what she would have chosen to say. She is not you and if she truly cares, she'd just be there for you, no judgements. Grief makes people uncomfortable. Some people want to rush you through it so that they don't have to deal with it. That's not possible. I don't think you ever get 'over' this sort of loss, life will just take on a new shape as time passes. And that's ok. But it's not ok for her to decide what you can / should say or feel.

id find it pretty hard to get past that comment tbh. Im not sure id forgive it at all

OP, you do not have to answer much differently in future. I think it is quite normal in these tough circumstances to say ‘I have two children living and a precious boy who was born sleeping’. If people care enough to ask if you have other children, they probably care enough to share a bit of the pain.
You sound lovely, and time will bring you better friends.

BigRedBus and IDontWantToTalk

So what? It was a conversation with a stranger, not a government form. Accuracy was not an issue. And it was a conversation with the OP. How was it the ‘friend’s’ business to take over the conversation, answer on behalf of the OP or, on her view ‘correct’ the OP? On the status of her stillborn baby.

So how this counts as mitigation of the friend’s behaviour I don’t know.

There isn’t a “right” way to talk about miscarriage and stillbirth. One of my friends had a very late miscarriage and was furious with the midwives at the time: she was adamant that she didn’t want to see or hold the baby, didn’t want to know what sex it would have been and wanted to walk out of the hospital and never mention it again. And she didn’t feel those views were respected. She went on to have two children, but if you were to refer to her as a “mummy of three”, she would be very, very upset.

But - the key here is that you need to respect the choice of the people directly affected. You chose to tell someone about your son....and your so called friend blatantly disrespected your views in a very cruel fashion. She was rude and very uncaring. That’s no friend.

Agree with the pp who said she sounds immature and competitive about people complimenting your twins. Yes, every mother does secretly think her own offspring are the best ever, but you need to be unbelievably insecure openly to run down others. Again, she’s not someone you need in your life.....

I'm so sorry for your loss. He does count! Of course he does. To suggest otherwise is bizarre.

It's really hard having to cut people off because everyone has good and bad sides. You sound like a lovely person because you're even in two minds about it.

I think you should absolutely cut her off. Life is too short to surround yourself with people who aren't really in your corner. I've had to do this before. It's hard but you won't regret it.

What a nasty thing to say! I get that everyone handles still birth differently. But he’s still your child.

she’s nothing short of a b*h. Your son counts, as everyone on here has said x

I'm so sorry you have to miss your Christopher. It's just shit

Since my children died I have had a few people who are almost jealous because people sympathise.

My own 'mother' (nc now) actually said "it's ok for you, you get attention and sympathy because you were mum, what about me".

Another person in my life made up a child who had died and asked me to never mention my children in front of her because it was so distressing for her. Turned out she was just a liar.

I think your, now ex, friend is one of these, who can't stand that you were getting any sort of sympathy.

I always judge my answer by who I'm talking to. Sometimes I say "it feels like a I have a million kids sometimes" sometimes I say how many dc I've had and sometimes I explain the situation. Like you, it just feels wrong to leave my babies out. They were here, and they mattered, and in some ways, being their Mum is harder because I have to fight to have them acknowledged in a world where people would rather I talk about them in hushed tones or not at all, because my children dying makes them feel bad.

I'm glad you've ditched your friend. Honestly, you should learn to be selfish about this. I spent a lot of time apologising and comforting other people after my children died, looking back, they should have been comforting me.

One day, and one situation, at a time op. This path lasts a lifetime, you've got a long time to find your feet and navigate the best responses for you, there's no right or wrong here.

Honestly, you should learn to be selfish about this.

you sound so strong Difficult, well done to you. However I have trouble accepting the word selfish in this context. It really isn’t selfish to not give in to people trying to shut you down emotionally. It’s just fair. Being kind to ourselves isn’t selfish.

Selfish would’ve been subjecting them to something that you wouldn’t accept on yourself. Wouldn’t you accept a grieving mother mentioning to you her sadness over her child, born sleeping.

I find that terminology helps us deal with emotionally overwhelming situations better. Many of us aren’t comfortable with being selfish but we are comfortable with being fair. Kindness to ourselves is very fair.

You would not be in the least unreasonable to never see her again. I’m so sorry - your boy definitely does count

I suspect that you will find it easier to make new friends with this individual out of your life. You sound absolutely lovely and have had a very tough time indeed.

She, on the other hand, has thrown away something that I doubt she will be able to replace.

I’m thinking of you and am in awe of your bravery.

Christopher counts and her comment was unforgivable. I couldn't allow someone so cruel to be around me even as an acquaintance, his memory is worth more than that.

Of course Christopher counts, he will always count. If can understand people not wanting to bring all those memories back to the surface, but if you want to tell people you have your twins and Christopher, but he was born sleeping, you tell them. He is still your little boy and a part of your family.

I am sorry for you loss. That remark was very insensitive. I suppose the only 'excuse' that she may have is that her way of coping with family deaths and other tragedies may be to minimize them or deliberately dismiss them from her mind, so she sometimes does this with others too. As an adult and a parent, however, she should know that it is hurtful. I suggest that, if you still hope for a continued friendship, you talk frankly to her and tell her how much her words hurt you. If she shows remorse, and it appears that it just came out the wrong way, then you may be able to go forward. If she is angry or indifferent or dismissive, then you may have to accept that the friendship has run its course.

I’m with Matilda - you’ll find friends popping up all over the place now she’s gone.

Lots of love to you and your three children.

Op, Christopher absolutely counts.

Your "friend" doesn't deserve you. No friends at all would be preferable to a friend who belittles your twins' accomplishments and says that your precious son doesn't count! He counts far more than her opinion ever will!

Sorry for your loss.

Exactly not a government form. She should never have picked you up on that!

this made me cry, OP

How can anyone, a woman, a mother, say something this cruel to anyone, far less to a friend? Heartless. Not thoughtless - that is too easy an excuse.

I'm so sorry Christopher isn't here with you now. That is heart breaking. He will always be your little boy, and you his mummy. He counts.