AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

[Cassort]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

1. If a child is being bullied, why does everyone else have to change except for the bullies? Women and girls have shove over and let that child pretend they are the opposite sex, the child has to take harmful medicine and have surgery, but the bloody bullies get away without a word of criticism.

2. The OP's claim is that this little boy should be accepted as a girl because he looks like a pretty girl. That is transphobic in itself. You OP have no sympathy for people with gender dysphoria who don't pass.

3. As said above, what possible reason could there be for separate sports categories based on gender? Apparently there are any number of genders too, should there be categories for each of them?

Change the sport. She wants to play for the Girls Rugby team.
At the moment, shed the same size as them. But then puberty hits. She's taller, muscle mass bigger, heavier. She knocks into smaller girl... And seriously hurts her accidentally.
It's a safety issue for any sport where there is more than one competitor at a time

I do have sympathy for this child. But also sympathy for all the other girls

@Cassort, I did a search on your username, because I suspected you might have joined MN purely to stir up posters on the trans issue. I accept that I was wrong about that, as you have contributed on several (fairly recent) threads quite reasonably.

I do find it strange, however, that you seem to understand something of the difference in biology which would make lobbying for male inclusion in female sports untenable:

Add message | Report | Message posterCassort Fri 28-Jun-19 23:34:35
Don't keep a weapon as, from bitter experience a man will take it off you and use it against you. Your best form of defence as a woman is getting away or having police come. You will never win a fight with a man.

Over s hundred posts, OP. And nobody agrees with you. Because while your heart's bleeding for this single boy we're thinking of all the girls pushed out or down a place by a competitor with an unfair advantage over every single one of them.

There are very powerful reasons we have sex segregated sports. An individual's internal and unverifiable identity is not a convincing reason to change.

God that's weird, BitOfFun. Major bit of cognitive dissonance going on there.

Isn't it just?

I'm just thinking that this child can probably be female in everything but sport

no this child is 100% MALE this child can NEVER be FEMALE
he can put on a dress and call himself Dorothy he will obviously be allowed to compete as a woman later in life but HE WILL ALWAYS BE MALE!!!!

Would you think it's a good idea for a female child to play rugby with the male children at age 11? Maybe. How about at age 15? She could be seriously injured or worse very easily!

I was very good at cross county at school, I was usually first or second. The boys had to do an extra lap but if we started are the same time there were usually about 5 boys finished by time I did, I'd have never got anywhere near winning and I wouldn't have push so hard to get faster if half the boys would beat me without really trying. They could lower their testosterone but that wouldn't "fix" their much longer legs and bigger heart and lungs, I tried running with them but my stride wasn't as long so I had to move faster and therefore my body had to work far harder.

My kids were competitive skaters and there was a huge difference is skill development between DS and DDs. No way would it be fair for a boy to compete with girls. Lots of boys wear sequins/flowy stuff, and more and more girls wear unitards. I don't care what the costumes are, but sex matters. While girls (especially the Russians) are starting to land 1 or 2 quads, the mens' competitions are dominated by multiple quads.It would be totally unreasonable to allow a male to compete with females in high level competition/ That being said, last weekend at Broadmoor Open in Colorado there was a competition where both sexes competed. The emphasis was on artistic (I think 60% vs 40 tech). First and second were taken by men (Jason Brown and Andrew Torgeshev) and third by a woman. (I think Karen Chen but I'm too lazy to check.

Your Rosa Parks reference is incredibly distasteful and you should apologise for it without reserve.

Also what is "quintessentially female"???

What about transgender (genetic) males who don't pass? What about "ugly" females? Butch females? Who do all these people compete with?

Though actually, it's now out there for all eternity for future generations to use as an example of everything that is wrong with the current incarnation of wokeness. Maybe the thought of that could make you more remorseful than you seem on this thread.

I know I'd just quit, drop out, refuse to compete, probably self harm etc. I don't think that an outright ban on transgender competing is fair or humane.

Yup, you sound like a completely well balanced individual.

Also what is "quintessentially female"???

Lots of pink frilly dresses, feminine frame, figure and face, not very good at DIY and doesn't know how to check a car's engine oil.

I think.

I just don't know how I'd deal with a child of my own who was transgender
I'd probably tell mine that being transgender didn't mean they could cheat at sports by using their male physiology to take a place in a girls competition.

In the interests of fairness and a level playing field, no a male must not compete in female sports. It is entirely unfair.

There should be three categories:

Female
Male
Trans

Only then will it be fair to all those competing.

Same with the toilets and other areas. This is not difficult to achieve, and should be the way forward. That way you can accommodate trans effectively. I am all for choosing to self id, but not if it gives unfair advantage or compromises the safety of others.

What about all the girls who would no longer see the point in competing? (Nobody is ridiculously suggesting that they'd inevitably self-harm though: somehow girls are expected to just suck it up and get on with life when it comes to injustice.)

I watched the incredible tennis match between the 15 year old Cori Gauff and her idol Venus Williams yesterday. One of the most heartening aspects of it was seeing the power of role models in women's sport in developing new talent. It simply wouldn't happen in the Brave And Stunning New World which people who believe in basically eradicating sex-based competition.

Look - I'll leave you to your hatred. I can't read any more of this shite.

/sideeyes and lobs a fish in your direction

My basic thoughts are that if you happen to be transgender, you're facing into a fucking lifetime of hell and discrimination and hate. So if you happen to be good at a sport, maybe just allow these people to be?

You are implying that girls and women are not facing a lifetime of lower pay for the same work, the threat of rape, the threat of sexual harassment at work, FGM and other horrors, denial of education, forced/child marriage, open misogyny online. We don't have parades about any of that, unfortunately.

You have conveniently forgotten that girls and women used to be prevented from playing competitive sports, and paid buttons when they played professionally. You ignore the fact they can go out there and win and make money from sport, which is a sign of real progress for women and girls. It seems to means so little to you that you call it 'hatred' when women seek to guard that from encroachment by people whose physique and prowess are all owed to their XY chromosomes and the hormones that go with that. Women owe it to future generations of girls to save women's sport and all the other spaces that we have had to fight for so furiously for hundreds of years.

If girls and women happen to be good at sport, why should their chance to shine and achieve something they have worked bloody hard for be taken away?

There are no words to describe how little time or patience I have for what you have posted.

Munhu Dolores Umbridge?

AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals

Maybe in 20 years time society will have got over this ridiculous notion that a person's sex determines what clothes they can wear, their interests etc.

Ironically this is something that women have currently managed to achieve much better than men. Women can wear dresses or jeans, make up or no make up, work as engineers or child carers etc etc and almost no-one says that interests and clothes that are not traditionally female means that they are actually a man so should compete against men.

So why isn't it the case the other way round? A man being able to wear dresses or jeans, make up or no make up, work as an engineer or a child carer without them, or society judging them or saying that makes them a woman and they should then be placed in female events or facilities, that are segregated by sex for legitimate reasons?

There are no words to describe how little time or patience I have for what you have posted.

Same as that. All that drama. All that incoherence and misplaced sentimentality. Nah.

I guess someone has to stand up and not move seats on the bus though for things to change.

Using Rosa Parks is really, really offensive. So well done with that. Racism weirdly hasn't been sorted out yet.

And no everyone not think she was being U. Very far from it. are you familiar at all with the case?

I can't see any hatred for transgender people and least of all for this little boy. Who is an 11 year old. You and I disagree a lot about what we will look back and think in 20 years though.

"In Rosa Parkes' day EVERYBODY thought she WBU......"
Pretty disgusting. I have US family (now dead) who were adults in that era . They would find that observation pretty offensive.

But she's not a girl. So she can't compete.

The transgender issue isn't that complicated really.

Why didn't you post this in the correct section on MN OP?