AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

[Cassort]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

Where strength and speed are required to compete, I am afraid I don’t think it’s right to include transgender women UNLESS their hormones have been proved to be equal to that of their counterparts. To me, that puts them on a much more level playing field. Then their muscle tone, etc must be subject to the same amount of work as the born women in their field.

*consistently at a similar level

I don't understand how you can worry for this child OP but not for any of the girls who will be disadvantaged by having to compete against biological males? Why does this child matter more than them?

I just wonder what we will think in 20 years time and what damage we'll have done in those 20 years...

If things keep going the way they are, the damage will be that women's rights will have been eroded. And a lot of young people will be angry that they've been cheered and egged on to permanently mutilate their bodies and pump themselves full of hormones that we don't yet know the long term effects of because anyone who dared to suggest that maybe they need psychological help and support instead of Sex reassignment surgery was shouted down and called a bigot. There are already post-op trans people coming out to admit that they regret it but they too are shouted down in the internet echo chambers. The numbers will only continue to increase.

I’m not anti trans. Biologically the child is male. If there was no good reason (which there is, for physiological reasons) to have sex based sports, everyone would compete together with no sex segregation. Therefore, sports should be protected and women should be able to compete without prejudice - women by sex, obviously, as gender is a social construct and is meaningless in this context. Women fought for equality, we need to protect that.

I guess someone has to stand up and not move seats on the bus though for things to change

pallisers
To be honest I find the reference to Rosa Parks impertinent and offensive

Yes, agreed. Rosa Parks just wanted a seat on the bus. She didn’t want to take over the bus and throw anyone else under it. I’ve a mixed race family, stop trying to appropriate things that don’t belong to you, it’s beyond offensive.

Genetics gives advantages in everything. The tall kid. The fast kid. The fat kid. The slow kid.

Someone is going to have an advantage somehow. And I just don't feel that if that advantage is that they are genetically male, while quintessentially female, that it's any different than putting all the shorties competing together and all the fatties together.....

Oh and Maria is a roller skater OP not an ice skater.

If my child said they were trans I would support them with name, pronouns, gender presentation - hair, clothes etc but I would be unable to support changing their bodies irrevocably until they were old enough to make that decision. This would make me transphobic whereas I call it common sense having read some of the stories from those who have detransitioned which are bloody heartbreaking.
I grew up with Bowie, Lennox, Boy George, Marilyn, Rocky Horror, Crying Game, Izzard (when he was transvestite rather than transgender and his clothes were his cos he'd bought them) and Tales of the city - gender bending they used to call it.
I have no issues with people being who they are and wearing what they want and identifying as they please but it worries me that children and teens who are impressionable are labelling themselves when they haven't lived yet. Which would make me transphobic.

I think sports is one of the real minefield areas when it comes to transgender issues. I don’t think there is an easy answer because someone born as a male will always have a physical advantage in sports over someone born as a female. Biologically males are stronger than females due to muscle distribution and natural hormone levels. Even with hormone therapy etc a body born male will still develop or have developed differently from someone who was born female. I think in upcoming years a lot of sports will need to have a serious rethink when it comes to categories for competing.

I’m not sure what the answer should be, but at the moment someone born male who identifies as female and/or is transitioning/ has transitioned to female can not fairly compete against someone who was born female. Similarly someone born female who is living as and/or is transitioning/ had transitioned to male would be at a serious disadvantage in most sports if competing against males who where born male.

Our society hasn’t caught up yet and I’m sure we will look back on a lot of things happening and being said at the moment with a raised eyebrow. Sport however won’t be one of them because your biological sex at birth will determine your physical strengths, body muscle distribution and testosterone levels, and that has nothing to do with what gender you identify as.

No, absolutely not. YABVVU.

As a former competitive ice figure skater, I say absolutely not. Physical difference can play a huge part in skating. To date, only three women have successfully executed a quad jump in competition, whilst it is regularly part of men's competition.

Here is a study that was done on the physical differences between male and female roller skaters:

www.academia.edu/5098393/The_anthropometric_profile_of_elite_roller_figure_skaters

"Significant statistical differences were found between male and female skaters in terms of body mass, height, arm span, the sum of four and six skinfolds and all skinfold measurements. Male skaters have a BMI of 21.4± 1.6 and female skaters have a BMI of 21.5 ± 2.4. The results indicate that arm span is an important characteristic for skaters. Mesomorphy is the most important component, followed by endomorphy, for male and female skaters. Male skaters have an endo-mesomorphic somatotype (3.5-4.5-2.5) and female skaters have a balanced mesomorphic somatotype
(3.3-4.1-2.9). "

I support this child's right to compete in the men's competition wearing whatever costumes they want and calling themselves whatever name they choose. They should never be allowed to participate in the women's competition.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

It is very easy to look at a cute prepubescent child and feel sympathy and not want to hurt their feelings. The problems are with post pubescent males wanting to compete with women. Even if their hormones are lowered they still have the other physiological advantages that having a male body brings. How would they decide the cut off for children? Monthly hormone tests and as soon as male puberty appears then no more competing with girls? There needs to be a cut off somewhere.

When women like Sharon Davis or Martina point this out they are attacked because obviously protecting feelings is more important than fairness.

YABU and talking total shite in general tbh.

But you are looking at competitive sport cass not a school sports day. Females who trained for years are being ousted because of their biology in a category that was meant to be for their sex not their identity.

Op - AIBU
Everyone - Yes, for these well thought out, researched and based in fact reasons
Op - NO NO NO I AM RIGHT

🙄

You are not being unreasonable

I am going to bed soon as it is clear to me that as far as MN is concerned iabu, so thanks for your comments.

I feel a little bit strongly about this which is why I started the thread, but it's not the time nor the place.

Night all.

That child doesn’t need to be a girl to wear pretty dresses. Clothing and hobbies do not make a person female. The child should be encouraged and supported in competing in the male division. Rules in the male and female divisions with regards to costumes
Should be reviewed and if the rules are irrelevant to competition in that sex relaxed. So I see no reason whatsoever a male child can’t wear a skating dress in the boys division.

CarolDanvers I actually lol at “talking shite in general” 😂
Couldn’t agree more.
I don’t know what your agenda is cassort
Can you explain what being quintessentially female means please?

Genetics gives advantages in everything. The tall kid. The fast kid. The fat kid. The slow kid.
Someone is going to have an advantage somehow. And I just don't feel that if that advantage is that they are genetically male, while quintessentially female, that it's any different than putting all the shorties competing together and all the fatties together.....

Here is a great thread explaining why ^^ that doesn't work.

mobile.twitter.com/BenWlv/status/1145072937881546753

No. Because the child is a biological male. I think we will look back in shame on how women and girls have been kicked aside to make way for transwomen / girls. I also think we will look back in horror that children were actively encouraged to medicalise and ruin their bodies.

I feel for anyone that faces these challenges in life but the fact is there are differences between genders that go further then how you feel in your mind.. they could tell the gender of my unborn child at 10weeks from DNA.. we need to seperate the term gender and use another word for how we identify.

It’s unfortunate that she can’t compete in the league she may wish too, but there are many children with the capability that may not be able to because of different reasons. Her challenge is her mind doesn’t match her body whereas some others might have physical capabilities that impact them. It’s unfortunate but it’s life.

@cassort
Your last post is disgusting now your not only being ignorant but making fun of dwarfs