AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

[Cassort]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

Sports categories by personal identity isn't the answer to anything. It doesn't give most trans people a slot even, as transmasculine competitors are never going to be able to compare to men without drugging to levels that is dangerous to their health (and even then?) and you'd need 76 different categories for the different shades of nonbinary etc. Maybe categories could be added to Paralympics with suitable definition for transwomen and other born male transpersons whose performance is significantly impaired from male levels, and transmen and born female who would be disqualified from female competition due to doping rules.

I would definitely cheer on a campaign for gender neutral clothing rules so transgirls like this can compete comfortably as transgirls in their correct biological category.

I think it would be a very bad idea for the individual involved to go down the route of girls categories as it would put them under pressure to decide early and under pressure not to change their identity, something a lot of teens naturally want to experiment with at puberty or later. And assuming some kind of rule remained to protect women competitors against mature biological males, transgirls would be under pressure to take hormone blockers or cross sex hormones in order to stay in the category they are competing in. In an environment where historically not all sporting bodies have had the competitors best interests at heart, that would be deeply worrying for young sportspeople.

There once was a Swan who wanted to be a duck. He hung out with ducks, played with ducks and felt he had much more in common with ducks than swans. His duck friends were very happy to have him in their gang, and saw him as a kind of honorary duck

Every year the duck community would come together for its annual duck race. Entrants trained all year and competition was fierce. The Swan heard about the duck race and got excited too. He told his duck friends, but was disappointed to hear that as a swan he would not be allowed to enter and his friends suggested he might like to find a Swan race instead.

The day of the race arrived and the river was all a-flutter with excitement. As the ducks warmed up, along came the Swan. He approached the officials and said he wanted to race.

Unfortunately for the Swan, he was denied entry, on account of him not being a duck. But, said he, I identify as a duck! Find where it says in your rule book that those who identify as ducks are barred.

The officials could find no such rule, and so the Swan was allowed to race. The duck competitors were dismayed as they saw such a large, strong bird line up with them. They knew they didn't stand a chance. And sure enough the race was over in a flurry of white feathers, breaking all previous records.

As the medal ceremony began, a whisper started up that it wasn't fair, for a duck race to be won by a Swan. On hearing this, officials were aghast. What could be done to salvage their reputation?

Quickly, the chairman of the duck race Committee (a pr mastermind) spoke to the crowd.

As a forward thinking species, we ducks embrace all water fowl, he said. Today we welcomed a new athlete onto the duck-sport scene, a truly spectacular racer. We applaud his achievements and support his desire to be one with the duck community.

And here he paused.

Anyone who does not support our diversity policy will be stripped of their duck racing permit, and no longer be allowed to compete.

And he cheered, and the crowd cheered, and the -swan- duck has won every year since then.

The end.

cass there are height advantages/disadvantages to different sports so if you are interested in competitive sport and were very short, you might decide to play basketball for fun rather than making a career out of it. Same as me being unlikely to be a jockey or equestrian.
Carol's link as to why Gender Neutral competitions would work beautifully in theory - we're all in it together - but not in practise - women win absolutely fuck all is why the categories need to be binary rather than fluid.

There have to be separate sections for male and female in sports, maybe another section of trans if it is needed. With sports it is down to biology and males are biologically physically stronger, so they should not be competing against females.

Why does this need to be spelled out? Rosa Parks was a member of the group that was (still is) oppressed/disadvantaged in terms of race-based oppression (racism).

Males ARE NOT the group that is oppressed/disadvantaged in terms of sex-based oppression (sexism). Males are the class with the privilege, the power in that dynamic, which is precisely why transactivism has made the astonishing gains it has in the astonishingly short time it has.

Males who combine actual privilege and power with the mantle of perceived victimhood. Like winning the lottery in terms of being listened to and getting a free pass to behave in the most appalling, entitled, selfish way while still being feted as stunning and brave, and infinitely more deserving of compassion than dull old females.

It’s sickening, and people like you trying to draw a comparison between boys and men using their male privilege to undermine and erode the still fragile rights of girls and women, and the courage of Rosa Parks in standing up to racist white supremacists, is beyond the pale. Just stop it.

My basic thoughts are that if you happen to be transgender, you're facing into a fucking lifetime of hell and discrimination and hate. So if you happen to be good at a sport, maybe just allow these people to be? There's not going to be a transgender female in every women's race. On the odd occasion where there is, is it really worth all this hatred?

I know I'd just quit, drop out, refuse to compete, probably self harm etc. I don't think that an outright ban on transgender competing is fair or humane.
Growing up, I was never the fast kid. I was never the tall kid. I was never good at sports. I was a crap all-rounder really. Did I denigrate my taller more genetically blessed comrades? No.

I think that for one child to have their life made miserable because they can't be who they want to be, is too high of a price to pay for one other child to win a race.

Have a look at Johnny Weir - a male figure skater who has achieved great success by dressing and acting outside of the traditional norms in figure skating.

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=rJkDIB1hCZU

I'm not unsympathetic to your opinion but
I just think it would fuck up a child who is already struggling with a massive issue to start with.

Perhaps not embrace competitive sport then? Just enjoy.
It's not a level playing field if physiological strength and stamina are ignored and would skewer any results that they did get.

Males ARE NOT the group that is oppressed/disadvantaged in terms of sex-based oppression (sexism).

I'm talking about transexual females.

Op, I get the impression that you think sport should be segregated by gender, rather than sex?

Why? If you split people by gender, you may as well split them by favorite cuisine, or horoscope, or favorite music type?

There's a logical reason to segregate by sex. I see no logic in splitting people via gender.

for one child to have their life made miserable because they can't be who they want to be, is too high of a price to pay for one other child to win a race.

This argument works the other way if the girl who comes second loses out because of the physical advantages of her transgender competitor.

Cassort you are talking about a group of people who are biologically male. You do understand that it isn’t actually possible to literally change sex, yes?

No - that's not the same @Tavannach.

If one child comes second in a race, it's not the end of the world.

If one child is told she can't compete, that possibly is the end of the world. Particularly if she is also going through the hell of being othered, hated, ridiculed, bullied, picked on etc. That sport might be all she's got.

And I don't know who you think you are - but I sure as hell am not going to appoint myself as judge and jury over a child's life and future sanity and happiness.

Sunday was Pride day. It has escaped MN.

I'm biologically both a cunt and a pain in the ass depending on who you listen to.

I'm also human. My blood is red. I bleed.

You're very touched by the plight of this boy. Your heart goes out. But you don't give a shiny shit about the girls who train just as hard who will lose because they're competing against a boy.

I guess someone has to stand up and not move seats on the bus though for things to change.

Women and girls are disadvantaged to a greater or lesser extent all over the world. There is no society in which women are top dog. If males are allowed to compete against females then women's sport is pretty much over.

Your Rosa Parks comparison is tone deaf. If anyone is Rosa Parks in this scenario it's not the male child seeking to compete against girls. Females shouldn't have to be put down just because a male is very, very sad.

As for 20 years time? We'll be looking at the biggest medical scandal since Thalidomide. Child transition is an ethical nightmare. Whistleblowers have spoken of a live experiment on children.

The only comfort is that we're not amputating the breasts of 13 year olds, as they are in the USA.

As for congratulations on having mixed race family. So have I. That's just bizarre. Families are what they are. It's not top trumps, you know.

Except she did end up competing. Family is pissed off because they changed the running order and this allegedly made her fall over.

Look - I'll leave you to your hatred.

I can't read any more of this shite.

If one child comes second in a race, it's not the end of the world.

It is if you've spent years training and it's your sole ambition, and you lose out because of an obviously unfair (and unsporting) physical advantage.

This issue is not black and white, but i think, as suggested upthread, for it to be completely fair there would have to special categories for transgender competitors.

Csssort, don’t blame other people for the fact you don’t understand what you’re talking about. You sound like you’re the one who’s full of hatred actually. Hatred for women and girls who aspire to be more than doormats for males to tread on.

Your misogyny, whether externalised or internalised, is appalling. This is not a healthy attitude for anyone to have.

On the odd occasion where there is, is it really worth all this hatred?

Oh stop it! There's no "hatred", I'm so tired of this constant escalation and twisting of simple disagreement, and sensible questioning being turned into accusations of "hate". No one cares about being seen as hateful anymore by the way, they're just weary of the constant breathless hyperbole.

I can't read any more of this shite.

Same!

No, it may not be the end of the world, but it is the end to women having rights and freedoms that have long been fought for. How long do you think that it will take for girls to start giving up sport because hard work and dedication no longer give them a chance at a fair go in sport?

In some sports there is a very real risk of injury when competing against male bodied persons. Do you want to come up against this person on the football field? Do you want to be facing off with Fallon Fox in the boxing ring?

Do you notice how this argument always affects women? Male athletes don't give a shit, transmen aren't going to be coming into their arena and taking over. Why is it that transwomen are so keen to stomp all over the rights of the very group they claim to want to be a part of?

If one child is told she can't compete, that possibly is the end of the world.

But the child is not being told they can't compete. Just that they must compete against others of the same sex. That's only fair. And there are zero limits on them skating for enjoyment wearing anything they like.

Have you considered what would happen if people were allowed to identify into other sporting categories? For example, would it be acceptable for a heavyweight boxer to identify as a lightweight or for an elite athlete to identify his way into the Paralympics? If not, why is it different when it's males wanting to compete against females?

Well said Prawn.