AIBU - What would you have done?

[TheQueensCorgi]

Name changed. Meeting at work (large company, very big on rights for all) and at the end we shook hands with others. I was the only woman in the room and when I got to a man (not white), I put out my hand and he said ‘Sorry I don’t shake hands with women’, and walked off.

I kind of stood there not really knowing what to do next, a few of the men who had overheard still in the room said he never shakes hands for religious reasons.

What would you have done? Would you brush this off? I felt like a second class citizen and quite embarrassed. Should I just be accepting of the fact this was his view or do I have the right to be annoyed ?

@yiskasha Sorry I forgot to add that these movements are beginning in Iran. I'm not sure about elsewhere

These are the quite similar to the style of dresses I chose @yiskasha

@yiskasha Can I ask, your cousins in terms of clothing, are they allowed to choose colourful pretty dresses? Mine are colourful and sparkly mostly but cover top to toe (my choice). Is this allowed for your cousins since its full cover, or do they have to wear more black/ less sparkly clothing? Is it offensive to the wankers who force hijabs for women to be covered top to toe because they draw the eye due to colour and style? Do women have any say at all? Xx

@yiskasha I think it's important for you to recognize that Iran has a government which is practicing and implementing a very twisted version of Islam. Orthodox Muslims in Iran are treated abhorrently and are not even allowed to have public places of worship, however, Sikhs and Jews are allowed synagogues and temples in the capital and most other cities without repercussions. The mullahs in charge don't worship God they worship money and self preservation. They have been cheating people from the moment they stepped into government from Khomeini to Rafsanjani to Rohani. They don't differ much from Saudi Arabia, in fact, they are probably even worse.

@mamimogo having lived in Iran and 3 other Muslim countries, I recognise that they're all the same. I can't defend a religion created by men to keep women down. I just can't and won't do it. That goes for all organised religions, but I only have first hand experience with Islam.

It’s not about defending any religion in particular, it’s about accepting that people have different beliefs and social boundaries. Declaring that your way is the ONLY acceptable way and forcing people to touch/be touched by others is NOT ok it’s gross.

@Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis shaking hands with someone is vastly different to being inappropriately touched or forced to touch someone. Shaking hands is common decency. They can shake hands with men they don't know but for some reason they believe they'd be rendered impure by shaking hands with a woman, when in actual fact that majority of men have zero idea of how to acknowledge women's boundaries. I'm guessing you don't have first hand experience of growing up around Muslim men as it shows.

Shaking hands is common decency. demonstrably not for this man and much of the world, but in order to see that you’d have to step out of your very rigid tunnel visioned view of the world.

From the point of view of someone who doesn’t believe touching the opposite sex (outside family) and being pressured to shake their hand IS being inappropriately touched or forced to touch someone. What else could it be?

Ok let's replace I don't shake hands with women with:
I don't shake hands with blacks,or
I don't shake hands with homosexuals
I don't shake hands with non believers.
I don't shake hands with transgender s

Any other variant and he would be reprimanded
Let's not forget religion is only a belief. No different from believing that the earth is flat.
Or worshipping Jeddi.
Fact.
I'm not slagging off religion, worship and believe in what you will, but recognise it is only a belief not fact.

You may as well replace it with

I don’t have sex with people who aren’t my husband
I don’t eat off other people’s plates
I don’t eat with my hands
I don’t put my arm around colleagues

But then we’d be talking about other social expectations wouldn’t we

@Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis ah yes, I am the one with the rigid tunnel vision view of the world... after all, I'm the one who has the problem with sexism.
You seem to not understand that I have grown up with this. This is a part of MY culture. I know it. I have lived it. I am allowed to have a problem with it. You are clearly far too worried about offending these men and you seem to have some kind of white guilt? I'm not sure, it seems common amongst white middle class women.
However remember: no matter how much respect you try to show these men, just remember they'd never show the same to you. Stop desperately trying to appease these sexist men.

don’t be silly.

@yiskasha I'm sorry but enough is enough. How do you know that @Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis is a white middle class woman? Has she said so? My brother in law is a Muslim. He has 3 daughters and 1 son, each time my sister was pregnant he prayed (5 times a day) for a girl because he believes as is in his religion that fathering a girl is the key to paradise. His religion also teaches that the only place of mercy in the world is the MOTHERS womb and that heaven lies at the feet of the mother (hence if you respect and honor your mother you will enter heaven). Women are regarded very highly in his family. Maybe the problem lies within YOUR culture and YOUR family. If we believe in freedom of speech and you a free to insult a whole religion of people then I am sorry, a 22 yo Muslim man has the right to refuse to shake a woman's hand because his religion says he can't touch the opposite sexist if they are not related to him. The same religion you and many others are openly bashing as sexist and oppressive towards women with no evidence other than your own experience within your own culture with your own family. Not everyone is the same. Wether I believe in heaven and hell is neither here nor there but I do believe everyone should be treated with grace and respect. The Muslim man in question was without a doubt wrong for not appropriately and respectfully acknowledging OP but his young age may have had something to do with his incapacity to do so and hopefully he could learn from that. However, in my view he was not wrong for not shaking her hand. That is entirely his right as it would be a Muslim woman's right as-well. We are living in a small world. People of all walks of life should be able to coexist respectfully without blowing something like this out of proportion. We can't judge every situation from our own stand point and experience ALL the time. Yes there are some evil Muslim men out there, just as there are some evil atheist men out there but that hasn't been your experience BUT it does NOT give you a right to generalize that a vast amount of men from a certain religion that you are familiar with are sexist, and that's final. Offer your opinion by all means but it's just your opinion at the end of the day, just as mine is just an opinion. We can agree to disagree.

@mamimogo was his only use for his daughter to ensure his key to paradise? 😊
Your brother in law is Muslim. You haven't grown up around Muslims, I am guessing. My parents are both from different cultures and are both Muslim. And every man I've met who is also Muslim hold sexist views, both in and out of my family.
Why are women only expected to give respect and never to expect it in return?
You don't get to tell me when I can and cannot speak. I can voice my opinions whenever I want to. You have no importance in my life.
I won't allow my Muslim sisters around the world, and indeed my non-Muslim sisters to have to endure this. I'll speak out against sexism at every turn.
@Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis your response suggests you don't have any intelligent response or any idea of the complexity of issues women face in Islam, so it tells me you probably understand that this man was simply nothing more than a sexist, using his faith as a reason to treat women as inferior to men. Although you can continue to defend him if you want. He wouldn't do the same for you though.
The conclusion is that this man is an idiot and there's no place for religion in the workplace. If it interferes with your ability be professional and a decent person, then it absolutely should be called out.

Part of his religion is he is not allowed physical contact with women who he is not married or closely related to. Women in his religion are not allowed physical contact with men they are not married or closely related too. It is not sexist and it has nothing to do with not respecting you as a woman.

Your company should not have forced him to act differently or feel different due to your ignorance of his religion, but should have looked at educating its employees and agreed an alternative way for anyone who does not want to shake hands with anyone, or anyone of the opposite sex, to greet each other respectfully i.e. clasps own hands and head bow.

@BrokenWing I'm a Muslim (non practising) woman. Even when I did practise, I shook hands with everyone I had just met whilst at work, as I am professional. There is no place for ANY religion in the workplace if it means you can't treat others with common decency.

@yiskasha so now you’re a Muslim I thought you said you weren’t any more? I’m sorry I laughed at your post, it was just so full of assumptions and nonsense. The joy of an on line forum is the removal of barriers like race, religion and even sex. We can interact without that baggage and on the whole most people (including myself) value that freedom. I’m not particularly interested in being drawn on my background or experience because I don’t need to add some weird racial/religious/cultural top Trumps to support my opinion as it can stand on its own. I also don’t need any man to “defend” me whatever his background. It sounds like you harbour a lot of ill will towards Muslims. It may be colouring your stance. That’s understandable but all the other posters on here are posting from their experiences which are just as valid.

Your company should not have forced him to act differently or feel different due to your ignorance of his religion, but should have looked at educating its employees and agreed an alternative way for anyone who does not want to shake hands with anyone, or anyone of the opposite sex, to greet each other respectfully i.e. clasps own hands and head bow.

@BrokenWing Totally agree and very well said. I think if the young man had respectfully addressed OP she would have had less of an issue and also, if she knew the reason why he didn't shake her hand that may have helped too, assuming he was not intending to offend her or being sexist.

@mamimogo was his only use for his daughter to ensure his key to paradise? 😊

@yikasha should you not know the answer to this if you were raised a Muslim? I'll make your life easier and just inform you that islamically speaking if you raise a daughter, educate her and love her with full care then you are "guaranteed heaven". So no, just having a daughter is not a free pass. My BIL fulfills all these duties as did his own father who has 2 daughters; the first dd a biochemical engineer and the second dd an interior designer who has styled shoots for Elle decor, H&G, Anthropologie and Graham and Green, among others. I suppose it's all relative yo oneself but I honestly believe that if we open our minds we could all learn something and perhaps so could "they" but unfortunately we really do live in a world where everyone is hung up of constantly feeding egos and being right and validated. As women we have had a hard time but its important not to marginalize other minorities as-well, especially when we are not sure of their intentions. That needs to be clarified my said person before jumping on the bandwagon. Intentions are very important imo. Did this young man intend to offend? Because I would not have been offended, if a man doesn't shake my hand based on his religion and If I did suspect he's a sexist I would laugh in his face. I have come to learn that chauvinistic pigs don't enjoy being laughed at. Even a slight snigger will do the job. That being said, sometimes it's just not that deep and it's not always about you (not you per se but in general).

Your brother in law is Muslim. You haven't grown up around Muslims, I am guessing.

@yikasha an assumption on your part, which is fine. My close friend is a Muslim. We've known each other since we were very young and her family is practically an extension of my own and vice versa. We lived on the same road and our fathers worked together. I've seen many examples of very decent Muslim people. I feel strange even having to say that but here we are.

Imagine doing business with a person of colour and then saying you couldn't shake their hand.

What kind of person interprets their religion in a way that precludes shaking a woman's hand in a business environment?

I sold my flat to a Muslim who made a point of shaking the estate agent's hand but made a point of refusing to shake mine. I found this degrading and insulting.

Women have fought very hard for equal rights and respect and we must protect these rights.

OP, this thread has taken a very different tone from the one you started. Perhaps you are still reading comments? Although as a small kid I spent a few years in the middle east I was oblivious and 20 years later at a trade show in Germany was shocked when an Arab distributor I had worked with for months via email refused my handshake in person. I was thrown, as you just have been. I had the benefit of saying, it’s just a trade show and we can still work via email. What do you plan to do going forward? Is this someone you will need to work with often? You can’t change his beliefs and how he feels he needs to implement them but you can decide how you choose to react.

You don't get to tell me when I can and cannot speak. I can voice my opinions whenever I want to. You have no importance in my life.

@yikasha I did no such thing. In fact what I said was this...

Offer your opinion by all means but it's just your opinion at the end of the day, just as mine is just an opinion. We can agree to disagree.

Also, you said...

I'll speak out against sexism at every turn.

I respect this and I think that's awesome but make sure it's actually sexism your speaking out against because it seems you might be (I could be wrong) harboring a great deal of contempt for one vast group of people, namely Muslims which is fueled by your own negative experience within your family/community. I know many Muslim girls who always feel they need to justify the way they live/dress because the world seems to bash them over the head with the notion that they are doing it to appease their husbands and fathers and brothers, but they feel dignified in what they are doing because they feel they are doing it for themselves and God. I feel awful that they feel they need to explain themselves to me but I Can see why they do because so many people look at them as being oppressed and I have to say that the Muslim women I have come across are some of the strongest women I've met. Again, this is just my experience. You have a very different one. There are two sides to every coin.

@Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis I've always stated I'm a non-practising Muslima. I have ill-feeling towards all misogynists, especially those who use their religion as an excuse to justify their misogyny.

Imagine doing business with a person of colour and then saying you couldn't shake their hand.

I don't think that is a valid comparison @SunnyInGrimsby If it was just Muslim men that were not shaking hands with women of no relation to them then it would be a fair comparison, however, many Muslim women also refuse to shake hands with non related men so it's not an issue of sexism and if it's argued that when a woman refuses it's not sexism, well then that argument is sexist in itself.

@mamimogo I'm sure your BIL is a nice man. I'm talking specifically about men using their religion as a reason to be more brazen with their misogyny. I'm stating again: the man prays for a girl, and the only reason for this child is for the man to gain entrance to aljana. The woman is only beneficial to the man if he can get something out of her existence. If you don't understand this then you don't understand the point I'm making.