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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU - What would you have done?

793 replies

TheQueensCorgi · 30/06/2019 20:26

Name changed. Meeting at work (large company, very big on rights for all) and at the end we shook hands with others. I was the only woman in the room and when I got to a man (not white), I put out my hand and he said ‘Sorry I don’t shake hands with women’, and walked off.

I kind of stood there not really knowing what to do next, a few of the men who had overheard still in the room said he never shakes hands for religious reasons.

What would you have done? Would you brush this off? I felt like a second class citizen and quite embarrassed. Should I just be accepting of the fact this was his view or do I have the right to be annoyed ?

OP posts:
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6
Durgasarrow · 03/07/2019 23:45

I think you are being unreasonable. You can treat people respectfully, yet have certain religious boundaries and prescriptions. This is about what his religion tells him he can't do, not about you.

Ilovemypantry · 03/07/2019 23:50

@Lifeover
At last...someone talking a bit of sense!

Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis · 03/07/2019 23:50

@Ilovemypantry Confused where do you expect him to go?

Ilovemypantry · 03/07/2019 23:52

Religious beliefs should not be a part of the workplace...end of.

DecomposingComposers · 03/07/2019 23:55

Well this is what the poster said

I don't respect any religion which believes women are in any way 'less'than men.
Women's rights unfortunately will always be considered less than those of men to practice discriminatory 'beliefs'.

It has fuck all to do with religious beliefs, it's misogyny clear and simple. It's an easy quick fix for misogynistic men to refuse to interact with women.
If their defence is 'it's against my religion' then they're misogynistic

Where am I mistaken about what was said?

mamimogo · 03/07/2019 23:56

@Isthisafreename this man is abiding by what his religion stipulates is the correct etiquette between men and women. He isn't choosing not to shake hands with her because he views women as a second class citizens, dirty or lower than men but rather to abide by his religious customs which he believes are set in place to preserve his dignity and respect for a woman. That is not misogynistic and to imply that it is is spreading misinformation and fueling the current climate of widespread Islamophobia through lies and falsehoods. I'm sure this man losing his job on grounds of discrimination because he didn't shake her hand would be appeasing to many but it isn't unjust discrimination and implying that it is in fact what is discriminatory. I see a lot of projecting insecurities onto this guy who probably could benefit from more refined social skills but I can't help but sympathize after seeing these comments. I'm sure it's just as hard being a Muslim man in this country as it is being a woman, if anything, it may even be harder in this day and age.

mamimogo · 04/07/2019 00:04

Religious beliefs should not be a part of the workplace...end of.

@Ilovemypantry Why? Because you said so? 😆
You have your opinion and I have mine. The UK would lose a fair bit of business if it stopped dealing with Middle Eastern/religious countries where these customs are widespread so good luck with all that.

Ilovemypantry · 04/07/2019 00:15

@mamimogo

Religion is a personal thing and has no place in the workplace. Practice whatever you like in your own home and personal life as it doesn’t affect anybody else .

mamimogo · 04/07/2019 00:24

@Ilovemypantry I do understand where you're coming from but I just don't think the world is that black and white. I understand OP was upset by not getting her handshake but I think it's unreasonable to insult people (or whole religions) because of what they believe in their personal or public life as I've seen on this thread. Sometimes the two go hand in hand. Albeit the man in question could have dealt with OP in a more forward manner and explained more thoroughly but you never know how apprehensive he may have been feeling. Just as she was the only woman in the meeting, he may have been the only Muslim in the meeting. Maybe if she pulls him up on it and how it made her feel he could learn from that and appropriately explain when the same scenario arises.

Brightlightsbigcity · 04/07/2019 05:26

Interesting. I'm sure I've read this OP before, almost word for word, within the last year or so.

GnomeDePlume · 04/07/2019 05:39

From what the OP has said he was a bit arrogant throughout the meeting. At the end of the meeting he started the whole hand shaking malarky not as a sign of respect but as one of dominance.

He couldnt shake OP's hand because she is a woman. He couldnt give another sign of respect because that was totally counter to what the handshaking was all about. He suffered a massive brain fart, mumbled something and scuttled off.

I would be mentoring him about appropriate behaviour in meetings. At 22 he has little experience but an awfully large sense of his own importance.

Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis · 04/07/2019 05:52

I’ve never heard of a religion you slip on and off depending on where you are, what you’re doing or who you’re with.

I’m still interested in where this man is supposed to go but also in who gets to choose what religious practices can be adhered to and what can’t? Freedom to follow your own religion is a good thing surely?

SoupDragon · 04/07/2019 07:05

At the end of the meeting he started the whole hand shaking malarky not as a sign of respect but as one of dominance.

There is so much invention going on on this thread. Are you him? Were you there? I suspect not.

Equally he might have started to shake hands in this male dominated area and then thought "Shit! OP is a woman!" And fluffed the explanation out of embarrassment. It's just as likely as anything else people are stating as fact on this thread.

SoupDragon · 04/07/2019 07:05

Issue is not the handshaking itself it is how he handled it.

Femaleassassin · 04/07/2019 07:15

So just to clarify, he's not shaking womens hands because it's a 'form of respect for women', so the menstruating thing has nothing to do with it?

SoupDragon · 04/07/2019 07:18

Well, women don't shake hands with men for the same reasons don't they?

Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis · 04/07/2019 07:52

@Femaleassassin we don’t really know as he didn’t say why, but not touching the opposite sex outside your family isn’t disrespecting one sexy or the other, it’s convention. He appears to have been rude but as a pp said the practice itself is not disrespectful.

Lifeover · 04/07/2019 07:59

Well apparently so long as he did not derive sensual pleasure from the handshake it should be ok in situations like the one the op mentioned

Spidey66 · 04/07/2019 08:03

I work in nursing in an area of London with a large population of Hasidic Jews. The men don't shake hands with women either. It's not personal.

LadyInParis · 04/07/2019 08:17

@Lifeover woke 😂😂😂

@Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis

It’s not “woke” to recognise different people have different etiquette/behaviour, nor is it “PC”, or any of the other cliches people come out with when they only want to cater for people “like them”.
What twattery is this? He could have done it better, but since none of us know what lead up to this, let’s accept that sorry I can’t shake your hand, just means sorry and move on?
Hear hear @Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis!!! I agree whole heartedly. Thank you for saving me from having to explain this shite and then the head fuckery of trying to understand her "woke" comment! I know you didn't post for me but thank you for saving me from having to engage with the weird person.. Is woke a thing now to describe being accepting of all cultures? If so then I'll take it as a compliment rather than the insult I think you were going for @Lifeover. I'd rather be whatever "woke" is, than be an ignorant person who thinks one size fits all culture is better than being inclusive, and accepting of all others, regardless of race, gender, culture, and sexualities. I welcome new knowledge, and I would have been so super curious I'd have asked him out of interest. I wouldn't give a shit about a handshake. Is this me being 'woke'? Or me being willing to accept and learn in this new multicultural society we live in now? You know, like moving with the times? Get over yourself love. Who cares about a handshake. You're preaching intolerance and a one size fits all culture. That being your culture. Well now times have changed. And youre going to have to move with them or be upset, offended, insulted, angry, whatever, a lot of the time.

@Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis Guess I ended up with a rant anyway 🙄😂😂

LadyInParis · 04/07/2019 08:32

@Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis

I’ve never heard of a religion you slip on and off depending on where you are, what you’re doing or who you’re with.
I’m still interested in where this man is supposed to go but also in who gets to choose what religious practices can be adhered to and what can’t? Freedom to follow your own religion is a good thing surely?

Agree 100%

Isthisafreename · 04/07/2019 08:57

@mamimogo - this man is abiding by what his religion stipulates is the correct etiquette between men and women. He isn't choosing not to shake hands with her because he views women as a second class citizens, dirty or lower than men but rather to abide by his religious customs which he believes are set in place to preserve his dignity and respect for a woman. That is not misogynistic and to imply that it is is spreading misinformation and fueling the current climate of widespread Islamophobia through lies and falsehoods

I don't know of any religion that stipulates rudeness and disrespect to anyone. I repeat, the issue is not that he didn't shake her hand, the issue is that he gave an active symbol of respect to the men but none to the woman. He turned his back on her and walked out, rather than touching his heart and bowing, or similar. His behaviour is not down to his religion. The lack of handshake is because of his religion (and would be acceptable to most if replaced by another symbol of respect as is done by most in this situation) but the rudeness and disrespect is all down to him.

Isthisafreename · 04/07/2019 09:00

@SoupDragon - Equally he might have started to shake hands in this male dominated area and then thought "Shit! OP is a woman!" And fluffed the explanation out of embarrassment. It's just as likely as anything else people are stating as fact on this thread.

I've suggested that as a possibility up thread. If that is the case and he uses it as a learning opportunity for this type of situation in the future, then all is good. If not, I suspect he well struggle to get in as rudeness is not acceptable.

Isthisafreename · 04/07/2019 09:13

@DecomposingComposers - Where am I mistaken about what was said?

Is that question to me? You asked would a woman who behaved in a similar manner be misogynistic. I don't see how you could think that behaviour could be classed as ingrained prejudice against women unless there is some mystical power in a handshake with a member of the opposite sex that she was denying herself through self-hatred?

LadyInParis · 04/07/2019 09:20

For the ridiculous poster/s who suggested him refusing her hand, as a possible belief that shaking hands with a woman who "might" be menstruating could be disgusting to him, and that's possibly why he didn't shake her hand: well if he was that offended by your apparent theory, why would he shake the hands of all the men who had touched the possibly menstruating woman? My god this Is out of control 🙄

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