AIBU - What would you have done?

[TheQueensCorgi]

Name changed. Meeting at work (large company, very big on rights for all) and at the end we shook hands with others. I was the only woman in the room and when I got to a man (not white), I put out my hand and he said ‘Sorry I don’t shake hands with women’, and walked off.

I kind of stood there not really knowing what to do next, a few of the men who had overheard still in the room said he never shakes hands for religious reasons.

What would you have done? Would you brush this off? I felt like a second class citizen and quite embarrassed. Should I just be accepting of the fact this was his view or do I have the right to be annoyed ?

@Isthisafreename 😂😂😂 Love that response. Gave me a giggle. But a good point too

@Isthisafreename

I posted the quotes from a pp who said that refusing to do something in the name of religion is misogyny.

My question was rhetorical - if it is a woman refusing to shake a man's hand, in the name of religion, it clearly isn't misogyny is it?

So the statement that it is always misogynistic clearly isn't true - that was my point.

This issue has been jumped on by people who look for any excuse to scream misogyny, even when it doesn't exist.

@DecomposingComposers - My question was rhetorical - if it is a woman refusing to shake a man's hand, in the name of religion, it clearly isn't misogyny is it?

Yes, I know you were quoting someone else. The poster you quoted was referring to a man refusing to shake hands with a woman and stated that a man refusing to shake hands with a woman, and using religion as a defence, is misogynistic (which I disagree with by the way).

I pointed out to you that obviously a woman declining to shake a man's hand could not be misogynistic as she was declining to shake a man's hand. This could, if you are looking for equivalents, be defined as misandry, but not misogyny.

Reading back over what you said, I think the confusion may be due to you using misogyny as a synonym for sexism? They don't mean the same thing.

I think the confusion may be due to you using misogyny as a synonym for sexism?

She clearly knows what misogyny is given she was pointing out that it wouldn't be misogynistic for a woman to do exactly the same thing for exactly the same reasons. Other posters clearly don't know what it means though.

@Isthisafreename I think what you mean to say is that your issue is not that he didn't shake her hand because even OP has agreed that if she doesn't get a handshake then no one should. According to the vast majority which hold the same notion this seems to be the general consensus of the thread. OP further mentioned he was "not white" which is neither here nor there but was nonetheless mentioned for a reason, I suspect. I think the scenario SoupDragon presented might be a little more than just possible considered the man is 22 yo. How many 22yo's (white or not) do you know who would put their hand on heart and bow in this scenario? It's been blown out of proportion by overreaction and oversensitivity which has resulted in a thread laced with islamaphobia fueled by untruths. When you take all factors presented by OP into account it would be quite difficult to scream Misogyny or discrimination but yet, here we are!

@LadyInParis, glad you find me weird, I would hate to think someone with your values would find me normal😂. Ironic that you accuse people of not welcoming other cultures when trying to defend someone who had no issue offending someone based on their gender when in an environment with values based on equality and a social convention of shaking hands. Where was his respect for that culture. Even Islamic guidance would allow shaking a woman’s hand in those circumstances providing he didn’t get off on it. Sounds like pure sexism hiding behind the mask of religion. As for showing respect, don’t make me laugh. Showing respect is about how the recipient feels, in this case the op felt disrespected, she was in an environment where men and women are treated equally. It was completely predictable she would feel disrespected in this situation.

Acceptance and flexibility to deviate from norms is not a one way street.

Would you find it equally acceptable if an evangelical Christian told someone in work they were going to hell for having sex outside marriage, having an abortion, being gay etc?

Someone up thread mentioned we do lots of business with the Middle East, yes when in their society we adapt to their social norms.

Social norms are the grease that eases society’s wheels, we interact with people in predictable ways, without integration and acceptance of these norms it leads to a disjointed and eventually non-functioning society, you are putting individualism above the needs of society. This is why the citizenship test concentrates so much on testing knowledge of the uk culture.

In a predominately muslim society, the op would have been in the wrong to expect a handshake off a Muslim man, In the uk it is expected men and women should be treated equally, therefore the man should have shaken her hand.

@mamimogo - When you take all factors presented by OP into account it would be quite difficult to scream Misogyny or discrimination but yet, here we are!

I fully agree with you. I think the only disagreement we have is the extent of the islamophobia on this thread.

I think the only disagreement we have is the extent of the islamophobia on this thread.

@Isthisafreename I mean, that's fair enough. I don't think it's outright islamophobia (bar a couple) but I definitely sense a tone in many of the comments.

@SoupDragon - She clearly knows what misogyny is given she was pointing out that it wouldn't be misogynistic for a woman to do exactly the same thing for exactly the same reasons.

I'm not so sure. She was comparing apples and oranges. The post she quoted referred to a man using religion as an excuse to treat a woman in an unequal way. She then asked would it be misogyny for a woman to behave in a similar way towards a man. If she had asked would it be misandry for a woman to behave in a similar way towards a man she would have been comparing like with like.

While a woman treating a man in a discriminatory way may be sexist or misandry, it is not misogyny.

@mamimogo - I fully agree and I am disgusted by the islamaphobic comments. The irony is, we have no way of knowing whether the man is a Muslim, some other religion that prohibits touching of the opposite sex or just a misogynistic git.

@Isthisafreename

Omg.

@SoupDragon has it exactly right. She understands what I was saying.

I was making the point to the poster that it clearly isn't misogyny because, within the same religion, women don't shake men's hands therefore their argument that refusing to shake someone's hand on the basis of religion is misogynistic is clearly not correct.

I understand what misogyny means and no, I wasn't using it in place of sexism.

I am saying it clearly isn't misogynistic and anyone who says it is is wrong. It can only be misogynistic if it is against women, which it isn't.

If she had asked would it be misandry for a woman to behave in a similar way towards a man she would have been comparing like with like.

I wasn't comparing anything.

I was pointing out the error of saying that refusing to shake someone's hand on the basis of religion is misogynistic is clearly wrong because women refuse on the basis of religion too. Therefore the assertion that a refusal on the basis of religion is misogynistic is clearly wrong.

I was trying to make this point to the pp.

@DecomposingComposers

@Isthisafreename - I was making the point to the poster that it clearly isn't misogyny because, within the same religion, women don't shake men's hands therefore their argument that refusing to shake someone's hand on the basis of religion is misogynistic is clearly not correct.

The poster whose argument you were challenging claimed that a man refusing to shake a woman's hand is misogyny, not that a person refusing to shake the hand of a member of the opposite sex is misogyny.

I do get what you are saying, but I think your use of the word misogyny in this instance detracts from your point.

There is an argument that misandry is not possible due to the dominant position of men in society so discriminatory acts don't have the negative impact on them that misogyny has on women.

Personally, I don't think that any religion is inherently misogynistic. However, there are many instances where misogyny is excused by a misinterpretation of the religion. You only have to look at the way different cultures interpret the same religion. I'm referring to religion in general here, not any specific religion.

@Lifeover Being weird isn't the same as having value or moral systems. I'm a total weirdo. But morally and in terms of values I find you weird, and rather awful. To me your value system is very skewed. Also hypocritical to imply my values and morals are in some way offensive Considering your posts here. To be honest I didn't read the rest of your post beyond that. I just can't bear it. I'm all about inclusiveness, culturally, and racially. The world is changing. Becoming very multi cultured. These other cultures are human beings. Not robots you can pre set when they enter the UK in order that they don't offend someone by what sounds to me a young inexperienced guy who was caught on the hop. He does need to learn a middle ground. For his sake, and the sake of others who he may upset. But that does not mean he has to conform to any of our norms, beyond not upsetting anyone in the work place. Had it been me, I would have had the grace to accept his apology and not been at all bothered, and just presumed he has different ways of interacting with women. Or maybe l would have kindly spoken with him and let him know that while I wasn't upset, it may upset others, and have a chat with him for his sake, to find suggestions for him. I think my morals and values are awesome, and despite being abused all my life by my family who told me I was a piece of shit, I always held on to my morals and values as the two things that I knew for a fact were good traits that I had. So for someone with your morals and values clearly indicated on your posts here, I find your implication of mine being lesser rather amusing, hypocritical as I mentioned, and odd too. Because I'm trying to stand to a more progressive inclusive side of this, and bearing in mind that's all you know of my morals and values, mine are less than yours? How would you possibly know that?

That's all I can say to you really, it's like a brick wall hence not being able to read yet another one of your posts about fitting different cultures into one. It's like trying to force all the circles AND the squares into just the round hole. Not gonna work.

This was the part of the post

If their defence is 'it's against my religion' then they're misogynistic

@Isthisafreename

My question is how can this be misogynistic? The rule applies equally to men and women - therefore it isn't misogynistic is it?

Don't tell me what I was trying to say. I know what I mean - it appears you don't understand. Fine. I'm not endlessly repeating my self.

Soup could see what I was saying.

@LadyinParis the fact you couldn’t be arsed to read my post entirely reflects inability to understand anyone else’s point of view that doesn’t fit exactly with your own and the only way your can describe anyoneone who doesn’t think exactly like you as weird. If you can’t see the irony in what you are saying I wouldn’t be entirely surprised, yet another pseudoliberal who only understand and accept differences if they fit within one of the predetermined diversity boxes. You claim to be open minded but in reality these are just words, your actions indicate you are someone with entirely different values.

Unlike you I’m open to others views so I have read through your post, you say this mans only duty was not to upset anyone in the work place, well he breached this didn’t he?

To say the world is becoming more culturally diverse is indicative of your western centric values. Most of the world remains quite steadfastly focused on preserving its traditional cultures and social norms, walk round say Baghdad in a mini skirt and crop top and see how culturally diverse the world is.

You say I can’t possibly know anything about your morals and beliefs but there you are making sweeping statements about me.

I’m afraid everything about your posts screams hypocrite. No doubt you pat yourself Being nice to the predefined diversity groups.

I too would have had sword with the man and explained that not shaking hands with everyone could be seen as a snub and he would need to consider ways round it, as anon Muslim I wouldn’t have assumed to know anything about the solution and would have suggested he discussed with his Inman.

@DecomposingComposers. - I'm not telling you what you're trying to say. I am telling you that I think you took the original comment out of context to extrapolate to an inaccurate conclusion. You disagree. Fair enough.

@Lifeover Oh my. Im sorry, I can't help but try not to laugh. I can't engage with you any further. I just can't 😂😂

@LadyinParis well thank heavens for that, I suspect you can’t engage with me any further because they only argument you have is “but I’m right you’re weird”. Lovely to see you so keen to engage with people you are different to😂😂😂😂😂

@Lifeover I think you're really angry about something in your life, or something in general, and are passively aggressively taking out that anger. Because if you were calm you would actually read what I said. And agree to disagree. But I can't engage any further because I don't want to be hurtful by finding this endless passive aggressive attempt at slating me based on a few posts on one topic. From that you got that I have lesser values, I think I am "woke", I'm not open minded (because I just can't keep reading your same points over again), you assumed I'm of some weird political stance that to be honest, I don't even know what those words mean, and that I'm a hypocrite and disingenuous. There were many more things but it's just silly now. Target your anger somewhere else because I don't want to further hurt your feelings by not engaging (not reading your post after you slated my morals, why would I?) And by finding your strange attraction to passive aggressively attacking me amusing. So to save your hurt feelings, and perhaps let your blood pressure come down a bit, I'm going to say I'm out. I am sorry but I just can't without equally bashing you. And I'm not invested enough in you or this thread (besides my already large input) to get angry and start a keyboard warrior war. Try to calm down have a brew and continue the discussion. Why should my views matter so much to you anyway? All the best.

@Lifeover I think I just kind of spoiled yet another of your passive aggressive come backs there didn't I? Grow up woman.

@LadyinParis, oh how you make me laugh I can’t comment on your beliefs and morals as I don’t know you but you can done pop psychology on my 3 posts and state I have some anger issues! You’re just the gift that keeps on giving😂😂😂😂😂😂. Even if I’d felt mildly annoyed this morning your complete inability to grasp irony will keep me chuckling for days. See ya go grab a nice cold glass of Prosecco - cheers

@SoupDragon in every company I have worked for if a relatively junior and new member of the team started trying to shake hands with colleagues after a meeting especially after behaving obnoxiously (OP's description) during the meeting then the general view would be that he was an arrogant prat.

Then deciding not to shake hands with the OP would have made him a rude, arrogant prat.

@LadyInParis did you just stamp your foot or stick out your tongue when you told me to grow up? Omg you’re priceless😂

@Isthisafreename

@mamimogo - I fully agree and I am disgusted by the islamaphobic comments. The irony is, we have no way of knowing whether the man is a Muslim, some other religion that prohibits touching of the opposite sex or just a misogynistic git.

I agree here. I don't think we have enough information to really be able to know if it was an awkward faux pas based on religion or culture due to inexperience, or it was based on religion or culture and he is just an awful man about it, or it was just him being a dick. There isn't enough information to know either way, and it is a touchy subject for some. Which has led to a lot of assumptions, extrapolations and then rows and misunderstandings between posters. The op I haven't seen many replies to be honest, so I'm not sure what it was she wanted on this post, in terms of advice, or if she was wrong to feel hurt, or other peoples experiences but a lot of people have invested in this thread. And I think this is the most simple answer. We can't know which of the options it is, so can't truly know his intentions behind not shaking her hand.