Hoarding and moving house

[Itsreallyallovernow]

Close friend is moving in a few weeks to a smaller property (about 2/3 -1/2 size of current home) for personal reasons but also partly financial. The date of move cannot apparently be changed.

Friend is a chronic hoarder. By which I mean that certain rooms in their home basically can't be accessed, even in the accessible rooms there is almost no clear floor space. Some of this is rubbish (friend will not throw away papers/ paperwork so there are boxes and bags full of newspapers, receipts, leaflets, etc) plus bags and bags and bags of clothes...maybe 30+ bags of clothes just in the hallway. Every doorway is used as hanging space. Every cupboard is jammed full.

Two of us have spent 3 days between us helping friend get rid of rubbish and recycling . This is now almost complete aside from the aforementioned papers.

However we haven't made any impression on any of the other stuff. There is no room to pack any of it and the reality (which friend hasn't faced up to) is that there simply isn't room for it in the new property. New housing situation is like a shared home so friend will not be able to live as they do now.

I honestly can't see a way forward. Fellow helper is away with work for next few weeks so can't assist. I have a ft job and my own home and family, I can give 1 day a weekend at personal cost but that's it.

There is no one else friend will allow to help. Friend is also balking at paying £300 for removals (I think this is an underestimate tbh) because of the expense, ditto putting anything in storage. I have taken about 15 big bags of clothes and other items to my house but this has simply reduced the piles from ceiling height to about 4ft. And I dont want my house overtaken by stuff either! I have said I will not be driving a van for the removals but I think this is what friend expects, not necessarily I do it but one of us does. Friend doesn't drive.

I am at a loss tbh. I can't help anymore than I already am and am frustrated by friend. I don't think they get that they have to reduce their stuff so drastically.

AIBU about it? And what if anything do I do?

Titania you're absolutely entitled to your opinions, and I've no wish to pick a fight, but the re-quote is out of context, so in fairness what I actually said. (with additional underlining) was:
ime most of the professional help via authorities out there is pretty useless as much of SS, NHS, FB, have little idea/desire how to help the person, as they come at it as the symptom being the big issue to deal with...

I accept it may offend, but it's my experience that regardless of how much work is done, for a variety of reasons many are utterly resistant to changing preconceived ideas and prejudices.

As said, there's many reasons, but as long as professionals, families, friends, neighbors etc perceive the symptoms of the condition as the main issue, that needs to be dealt with, and fast, things will rarely go well.

It's understandable enough that people believe if we could just get rid of the stuff the problem's solved, in the same way that people used to believe that 'anorexics' just needed force feeding, and those with autism just needed to learn to behave 'normally' and all would be fine.

It's not only the person with hoarding disorder who has to want and be ready to change in order for everyone to get anywhere.

In terms of the O/Ps friend, I'll be very happy to be wrong and hear their area has an enlightened, joined up set of statutory services ready and able to help. In lue of that: it sounds like the person with hoarding disorder has created a time based situation driving things, which O/p is finding herself feeling obliged to follow or fight over.
The best thing would be if that could be pulled back from while a more realistic time plan can be formed, rather than having to deal with a crisis that could leave the friend homeless and without rights to housing help.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-48797077?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_radio_4&ns_linkname=radio_and_music&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0QyWFf-H4AY0z1QrKt5Ue88UnQZKFFoJfVGShvWYhtcBFh9L9D2u-25yo

She needs to speak to her GP and contact her local Mind group. There are also probably local hoarding support groups she could contact. She needs to approach these people first. You can't be solely responsible for sorting this.

We have made some progress with our ex tenant where she is now happy to walk away from what’s left which I think she would have found incredibly distressing . It was if I stood back and could be objective about it , an interesting process to watch.

She noticed an immediate improvement in her children’s behaviour as they were no longer surrounded by chaos, they became calmer. She started taking books to the charity shop herself as said she realised she wouldn’t read them herself so better to give someone else the chance and they are so cheap if she wanted one she could go and buy it. I felt that was a very positive shift in her mindset and I am really really hoping that things improve for her.

Have attached a picture of one end of a room, there big wardrobes down one end. This is after 7 months of her clearing and is just one room of quite a few. Decorator thinks we’re at stage where 5 of us with 3 cars might be able to clear bulk in a day so that’s huge progress.

She wouldn't go to her gp and frankly with a 3 week wait for appt there simply isn't time.

The landlord has been and is fine with the state of the place. Friend who has the houseshare has also now seen it and believes there is room. As hoarder friend has no money for storage it is all to be packed and taken with her. Apparently this will be done in the next 3 weeks.

I'm going again either this weekend or next to take more stuff to the dump. Nothing is being sorted for charity shop as she insists it is all essential so she is taking everything and will sort it once she's moved.

I have tried to say they will need a LOT of boxes to pack it all. Hopefully that has got through. A man and van is being used, friend has to give number of boxes though which can't be done until packing is at least 50% done.

At least I feel burden is not on me any more which is good.

This is a good update.
Glad to hear you are feeling less stressed and have stepped back a bit

Good to hear it’s no longer completely on your shoulders but I can’t help thinking that the friend she’s going to live with is either a saint or completely insane.

Really good news on many fronts, and good to hear you're feeling much better about it all.
Hoarding easily damages friendships but if you're not having to live with it, it really doesn't have to. (though I do fear for the future friendship with the house sharer!)
The person who's developed or has the disorder is still the same person with all the positive aspects that created friendship between you.

I think 'burdens' are often on our shoulders because we start taking responsibility for others decisions and indecision's, which is really easy to do when faced with 'big situations', especially when you drive and they don't etc, and their may be expectations from them, but isn't good for anyone and wrecks friendships.

I used to do it a lot, then realised that actually I'd developed an over inflated sense of responsibility in the face of a parent and others lacking any, that caused me to think in a particular way. There was a point in my life where I could have been accused of hoarding other peoples problems. (easier than my own!)

A good strategy if possible is using mainly the same size boxes. Even if she does an amazing job the other end, the boxes will be stacked for some time and need to be able to withstand that. It will also help develop her thinking in cubic measurements.

(If boxes have to be free, banana boxes are good, and supermarkets often will happily give 10/20 a morning. Black sack inside lowers potential clothes moth infestations.)

Listing, labeling, photographing contents, (and someone else keeping a copy that they are able to find when she's buried hers,) are systems that may make the future more tenable.
Brown parcel tape means you can cut boxes open and reseal without damage as many times as needed.

Thanks for the update, and good to hear that you feel less responsible now and more relaxed. Frustrating though it must be for you to see a friend in that situation, you can't fix it for her - only she can.

I think you're a lovely and caring friend OP. My mother is a hoarder and my siblings and I filled two large skips with her stuff. We were fighting with her over broken plastic spoons! It was incredibly emotionally draining.

We placed everything out in the garden and then organised into piles of keep, donate and sell. It was a battle every step of the way.

I wish you luck, OP

Please be conscious of your own mental/emotional wellbeing.

Sorry didn't see the update. It's for the best.

Glad you updated, OP.
You should either return or dispose of the boxes you cleared out - don't have them at your home, otherwise they will be there enroaching on your own space for years. She will never get round to "sort through" them.

I have experience with a friend of a friend who lived like this. She was in a bedsit in the city centre above a shop, and it ended up being floor to ceiling with walkways through it and a space where the bed was. It was unbelievable. She had to move. The landlord gave notice. I went around and tried to help. I cleared a shoebox worth of stuff. She had to look at every bus ticket to see if a memory was attached, go through leaflets, newspapers etc.Keep ballet shoes she found in the skip outside in case they were worth money. But never do anything with them. It was weird for me as I'm the opposite - so minimalistic. Think almost blank rooms with bed, duvet, pillow, little bedside cabinet with a few items on it. Clear windowsills etc. One picture!

I made such a tiny dent in how her place was, I gave up. There was actually no point. I would've carried on if even I'd been able to fill say a binbag, as I could see doing that every week would be worthwhile. But it was literally a shoebox worth of stuff. She didn't seem really motivated to do it tbh. There were mice living among the piles of stuff. She used a kettle to make noodles and would pretty much eat in her room or buy pizzas from the thing downstairs.

Fast forward to moving day and it was still pretty much as bad. She started taking items out of the room (it was like a bedsit) and putting them on the stairs. The weekend came and went, she got about 1/4 of her stuff to the other flat. Kept trying to go back to get more stuff. This was all done via bus so you can imagine.

To cut a long story short, something shocking happened.

After the moving weekend passed, the landlord lost patience and he disposed of 100% of her stuff. Everything. School photos. Photos of her growing up. Stuff that actually was legitimate possessions. Things that may have been needed. Documents. Certificates. Clothes. The only things that weren't affected were 1. kitchen items (as that had been done and 2. bathroom items (as that had been done). He got rid of everything, and cleared and cleaned the room, got a new tenant in. Told her not to come back.

So she lost everything because she couldn't get it out on time.

Apparently the new place is now just as bad as the old one was.

Is the friend the sort who also had lots of stuff?

Not your problem anymore though so yay!

sky was that legal? I would have thought landlord would need to say and give a days warning or something?

I think I am done with it. I have my family to think of. And I do think as pp have said she may need to hit bottom
OP - make up your mind and stick to it, she's got you running around like a blue arsed fly!

As a hoarder myself I can tell you that if anyone had helped me in the way you've been helping her - i would have been in tears with the gratitude.

Thankfully i've never been as bad as your friend.

My advice would be to have a very blunt conversation with her - and don't take responsibility for arranging transport etc.
She has to reach the point of either rock bottom or be faced with an ultimatum - sort it out or lose it.
At the moment she isn't taking responsibility because other people are doing the sorting, lifting, thinking, worrying......and she's banking on your goodwill to sort everything out for her, and using her mental health issues to manipulate your good nature.

I'm very surprised her landlord is ok with the state the house is in because they will be the ones paying for a deep clean and removing the leftover rubbish.
There WILL be leftover rubbish - unless you and the other friend are volunteering to ensure the whole property is empty and clean?

The more anyone else takes responsibility for her the more you are enabling her.
It does sound cruel but you do need to tough with her, she has to make a pile of what she wants to take so when you go over all you need to do is chuck it into boxes and transport it.
You shouldn't have to sort through her crap and engage in conversations about whether she wants/needs it or not.
If she hasn't got stuff ready for you then just turn round and leave.
Any excuses/refusals/demands should be met with "not my problem - you sort it".

The house-share mate needs to have a blunt conversation with her too:

• Tell her exactly how much stuff she can bring & to arrange her own transport

- Explain the house rules - especially regards communal/shared spaces, expectations regards housework and keeping her room in a hygienic/acceptable state. - Consequences of not abusing by the rules

I doubt she will be living with house-mate for long as they don't know the fulls scale of her issues, and this person WILL end up hoarding/causing issues in the new place.
She needs professional help so hopefully once in the new house she will go and see her GP.

I almost forgot - be careful when you're in/clearing/picking through stuff in her house.
You're breathing in years old dust and dirt and god knows what else, and touching stuff that has probably had vermin/rodents crawling all over it.

organised I’m very sorry if you felt attacked. It was really not my intention. Your story was very sad to read, and I’m sorry for your loss. It sounds like you are very patient, kind and understanding and have used your own personal experiences to help others.

Op - you have done your best and have nothing to feel guilty about. I hope your friend’s move has a positive outcome.

Just a further update...so after last week feeling like we were moving in the right direction I'm now not sure.

Went back again over the weekend. Friend has packed a few more bits but there is still stuff EVERYWHERE. I packed 4 boxes for her in about an hour while she was still moving bags about. She has about 10 more moving boxes to be made up/ packed. I've told her she needs to get more...no idea if she will or not. She has less than 3 weeks left however I and other friend can only go once more each to help her. Other than that she's on her own.

We've been reminding her to book a van but she hasn't. She has details of a company who just require a list of furniture items, and number of boxes and bags. This should work well for her as she only has about 7 furniture items everything else will be bags and boxes. However she HAS to pack more to have any idea of final numbers....

She also has a large outdoor shed which is full. There have been mice (or worse) in it so we friends have said we won't be emptying it because of the health dangers (also I'm not putting any of it in my car). She's resisted the suggestion of getting someone in to clear it as she wants to go through it first but she simply won't have time.

In fact I'm not sure she has time to finish any of it. She is faffing around making up little bags of recycling items whilst surrounded by 4ft high piles of newspapers that she won't throw away.

I know I have to disengage but it is so frustrating! She needs to move asap because she isn't working atm and doesn't yet have anything to go to (albeit town where she is moving to is an area of fairly low unemployment and her overheads in the new place are such she could manage on min wage). But she's not worked for 2 months already so money is running out.

Maybe she will surprise you and turn it around

Well she might...I'm back there next weekend so can only hope she's made some progress by then.

You are still really over invested. Even if you know you can only give her another few hours etc - it seems to be taking up all your headspace. You need to learn to detach from this mentally as well as physically. She needs to reach her rock bottom on her own. She won’t surprise you - it will be a car crash.

I think I'd understand this if it was your mum or dad or a close relative. Or your job.

Over invested.

I don't have any parents or close relatives (other than my DC), or a partner - I (and other helpers who also have similar family situation to me) have known friend for over 30 years..that may explain why I/ we are so invested in this.

I am aware that beyond the 3 of us she doesn't have anyone who will help her and if something doesnt change she will not be ready to move. I don't want to get a call on moving day asking for help. I suppose I could take the view I could ignore a call like that but it wouldn't sit well with me as a friend.

But all of your enabling is preventing her accessing the MH services she needs and all the while her MH is deteriorating.

You're assuming though that there is MH provision in her area (it's very limited and unless in crisis which she isn't there is nothing immediately available. Any referral is likely to take 4-6 weeks from when she's seen her GP which is a 3 week wait for an appointment. And she's moving in less than 3 weeks.

Any MH help has to be sought by her and she doesn't accept there's an issue. So whilst this maybe something that hopefully she will realise and choose to address once she is in her new home she won't and indeed can't do it now.