Hoarding and moving house

[Itsreallyallovernow]

Close friend is moving in a few weeks to a smaller property (about 2/3 -1/2 size of current home) for personal reasons but also partly financial. The date of move cannot apparently be changed.

Friend is a chronic hoarder. By which I mean that certain rooms in their home basically can't be accessed, even in the accessible rooms there is almost no clear floor space. Some of this is rubbish (friend will not throw away papers/ paperwork so there are boxes and bags full of newspapers, receipts, leaflets, etc) plus bags and bags and bags of clothes...maybe 30+ bags of clothes just in the hallway. Every doorway is used as hanging space. Every cupboard is jammed full.

Two of us have spent 3 days between us helping friend get rid of rubbish and recycling . This is now almost complete aside from the aforementioned papers.

However we haven't made any impression on any of the other stuff. There is no room to pack any of it and the reality (which friend hasn't faced up to) is that there simply isn't room for it in the new property. New housing situation is like a shared home so friend will not be able to live as they do now.

I honestly can't see a way forward. Fellow helper is away with work for next few weeks so can't assist. I have a ft job and my own home and family, I can give 1 day a weekend at personal cost but that's it.

There is no one else friend will allow to help. Friend is also balking at paying £300 for removals (I think this is an underestimate tbh) because of the expense, ditto putting anything in storage. I have taken about 15 big bags of clothes and other items to my house but this has simply reduced the piles from ceiling height to about 4ft. And I dont want my house overtaken by stuff either! I have said I will not be driving a van for the removals but I think this is what friend expects, not necessarily I do it but one of us does. Friend doesn't drive.

I am at a loss tbh. I can't help anymore than I already am and am frustrated by friend. I don't think they get that they have to reduce their stuff so drastically.

AIBU about it? And what if anything do I do?

yes person she will be living with knows some of it. Not full extent though.

God poor person! 120 miles round trip is ridiculous especially as she is saying she won’t do it unless you give her a lift. Why is she making her move your problem? As she is moving so far away are you going to be seeing much of her after the move?

Where is your friend on the hoarding scale?

www.hoardingconnectioncc.org/Scale.cfm

My friend’s house was between a six and a nine depending on the room.

Kitchen was a 7-8. Now about a 2-3 (most of the stuff in the kitchen was rubbish which she would part with after spending 5 hours sorting in into differnet recycling piles or out of date food etc) Hall is a 6. Cant get through the door of the other rooms (she hasn't been in one of the rooms at all for 8 years) but from what I can see at least a 7.

I feel sorry for those she will be sharing with, if she ever gets to move that is.

I doubt she will change, the new place will end up the same as the former home in time, as sure as eggs is eggs.

Does the new housemate know of her issues with hoarding? There may be more trouble ahead. Dreadful situation, but I don't think any lay person is equipped to deal with it unfortunately.

I can only agree with all those who have said to step away, and not let her make this your problem. If she won't move from one property to the other unless you drive her, then she will have to stay where she is and deal with the consequences of that.

And return the bags of junk you have already taken - you are not helping her. You will either be stuck with them forever, or incur her fury for getting rid of them.

You are a great friend and have tried to help her deal with this situation, but the truth is she is totally preventing you from dealing with it in any appropriate way. I would kindly but clearly explain that you are stepping away because you feel that your presence is only perpetuating a situation which needs to change.

Op you know you can hire skip bags?

www.hippowaste.co.uk

I’m wondering what her financial situation is and can she afford private psych help. I’m not sure whether we can always say hoarding is that kind of issue, my friend did eventually deal with it without help.

But it took being kicked out of two flats before it sank in. Both were flatshares with friends and the hoarding was one problem - she was also generally chaotic and hard to live with.

Step away OP. You won't be able to make a significant difference and you'll end up with the hoarder hating you and blaming you for getting rid of her valuable stuff. it isn't valuable at all, of course, but she thinks it is.
My sister was a hoarder. She actually got her DH to build an extension to their house which she filled with crap. it was supposed to be a bedroom for their DD but my sister filled it with rubbish.

Sister and DH hit very hard times and couldn't pay their mortgage. Eventually their house was repossessed.

The local council offered them a flat. My sister was utterly outraged that she wouldn't be able to take all her junk with her and blamed her DH for throwing things out (we're talking old newspapers and carrier bags and other nonsense.)

Myself and other sisters got a skip. We spent a whole day throwing things out. During the night my sister went out to the skip and retrieved crap which she considered was vital.

Eventually, my sister and her DH moved to the council flat. Sister was so angry about having to leave her rubbish behind that she invented all kinds of reasons why the new flat was impossible to live in - for example, she maintained that she couldn't open the gate as the handle was too stiff. She used to phone the council's emergency repairs line to come and open it for her.

It was absolutely awful. After a year of this she developed leukaemia and died. I have no doubt that the mental and emotional stress of having to throw away most of her hoard played a big part in her developing a life-limiting condition.

Step away. You will not achieve anything by trying to help.

The only useful thing you can do is warn the new flatmate about what is coming her way. She needs to know. This is so unfair for her.

Please don't do the boot sale as I did this with a friend with the same problem. We sold very little because she wanted too much money for stuff. She kept saying "but it's new and I paid £28"She was oblivious to the fact that despite still having tags the clothes were old fashioned and dusty after being moved around for ten years and that people won't pay a lot for "new "electrical goods that are also years old in faded dented boxes.The absolute killer was when she went to get a tea and a burger and came back armed with loads more crap from the other stalls.

"The absolute killer was when she went to get a tea and a burger and came back armed with loads more crap from the other stalls"

yes. when my hoarder friend moved, and had all the stuff paid for in storage, she bought more stuff.

one of the reasons I gave up after two days was that I realised she wouldn't change. She didn't initially plan to put all her things in storage; she originally asked me to help her clear out.

On day 2, not sure what hour it was, I found her in the kitchen cooing over a collection of about 60 odd mugs, some of which she hadn't seen for years. This was in a tiny galley kitchen like mine. She also lived on takeaway but had every cooking appliance known to humans, and that's partly why she paid for storage.

The trouble with hoarders is that they are remarkably selfish and completely delusional.

When their rooms are so full that you can't see the ceiling any more, what they see is a nice, minimalistic space.

When the kitchen is full of out-of-date, spoiled food, they see a few items with which to make a delicious meal. Despite the fact that they live off takeaways.

Their perceptions are totally skewed.

Bear in mind price from man with a van is based on they can just lift boxes etc straight out no packing up. Your friend is making excuses to keep everything, definitely call SS

I come from a family with hoarding tendencies and the thought of eventually having to deal with them causes me stress. So I have followed this thread with interest and also much empathy. You're a good friend.

I did a quick google and there's quite a bit of info. This link is obv aimed at professionals and is a bit wordy but lots to think about and way to assess the issue.

Hoarding protocol

The other thing I would do now (and I've been involved in this as the landlord) would be to involve the landlord.

They can give appropriate notice and inspect. There is probably little chance that they will gain possession on the end date of the tenancy, so forward planning for them is helpful.

Technically, it's not your problem but it will be their problem, so notice is good.

The landlord is coming round in a few days. Other friend who she will be house sharing with is aware and is also going to see her this week.

That's good.

For your own sanity, realise it's not your problem and she's also not going to meet that date, so take the issue of time pressure off yourself (as I think you will still think of it as your problem.)

The difficulty with asking for support from services etc is that it mostly needs to come from the person themselves. They have to be at the stage of wanting things to change.

Its the same as getting support workers in, as they will have the similar issue as you guys do, of her wanting to slowly sort and not actually wanting the help (ie not wanting someone to come in and throw things away).

Everyone around the person is desperate but often the person themselves isnt going to work with others if their goals dont match

Involving the landlord and new house mate is good. Your friend is not going to sort this out until she gets treatment. The selfishness the rage the pulling things out of skips the unreasonable value placed on junk is all typical hoarder. Don't be surprised if the new flat mate pulls out and if this happens is there a plan b.

I'm also wondering what will happen if the new house-sharer backs out after seeing her property, because the Landlord might be keen to get her out once he sees the place!

I would also back away and hand this one over to the professionals, OP. You've done as much as you can, it's a bit more than the hoarder just feeling overwhelmed at moving.

Perhaps give her a list of things that need to be sorted - she needs to pack items, arrange for transport, clean house prior to leaving. Emphasise that you will be doing none of it! Good luck!

Well done stepping back OP. You cannot fix this for her. She doesn't sound ready to accept the full extent of her problem. You can only be there for her when she is ready.

@Jemima232

Mummymeister has it. This is v massive MH issue that only a dedicated multi disciplinary team of professionals can tackle (maybe not even successfully). Your actions are the equivalent of polishing the teaspoons, even though your intentions are brilliant you do not appreciate the scale and complexity of what you are dealing with.....in fact your actions are enabling this. She needs to seek and engage with professional MH services....she will never do this if you keep her stuck where she is....every inch you clear / sort - she will have a compulsion and urge to fill again.

These situations often get “addressed” at crisis points. The landlord is coming round in a few days. Other friend who she will be house sharing with is aware and is also going to see her this week.

I think this will be it. You stepping totally away letting her deal with LL and friend it will all blow up, reach crisis point and her rock bottom. This is her only moment for change.

MrsMump, it's likely that the fire brigade will have added your MIL's address to their register of premises containing hoards, so that if a fire breaks out they have some idea of what they are dealing with. They can't really do anything else except give advice that the hoard is a fire hazard.

OP you sound a lovely friend.
But this is too big and too complicated for you to
fix.
There will be a big situation, but as a friend then you can be there with emotional support and tea.
THis is not a situation for you to solve.
But you can still support your friend through this.

I've been working with 'hoarders' for over thirty years, both as a cleaner, and a de-hoarder.
I grew up in a squalor hoard, and hold a viewpoint based on watching a parent descend into a self made hell, taking their children with them. It didn't end well for anyone.

It's a deeply destructive and heart breaking MH condition, but the hoarding is actually the SYMPTOM not the actual problem.

Which is why trying to remove, hide, solve, store, dissipate, the symptom, doesn't work and is counter intuitive to the person even when they know nothing of their own condition.

There's some nasty judgmental stuff on this thread that just further stigmatizes and 'others' sufferers.
People with the disorder come in many types.
Yes some can be angry and mean and all sorts of negative emotions can be present, sometimes through character, sometimes as a learnt defense mechanism, but many are desperate, hurting, humiliated, and some so ashamed that taking their life seems the only solution.

Nearly all 'types' have a traumatic back story or five buried under everything else, but the essential issue that all have in common is the same: development of an emotional attachment to possessions at a level that enforced parting causes anything between deep psychological distress and damage, to life ending being genuinely preferable.

You can't fix this, and in the nicest possible way, don't have the skills and knowledge to help your friend, which is why you are suffering, and they continue to be delusional and unreasonable in the face of your efforts and intentions.

TBH ime most of the professional help via authorities out there is pretty useless as much of SS, NHS, FB, have little idea/desire how to help the person, as they come at it as the symptom being the big issue to deal with, and want to focus on that for the benefit of others, rather than a holistic approach for the benefit of the individual, and much of the experienced help is outrageously expensive and only some are even good.

There are a handful of good charitable and 'at cost only' organisations out there, sparsely scattered. See if there's anything near you.

Your friend actually needs many sessions of identifying certain things individual to each person and their situation, then an individual realistic plan making with them, help with collating, sorting, help with developing decision making strategies, help with developing volume and spacial perception and awareness, and much discussion to help change how they currently perceive and value things, space, relationships, themselves, the past and the future, along with the time and space in between, to absorb, fight, mourn. collapse, come to terms with some of it, stand up again etc. All time your friend probably doesn't have.

How far and how fast someone can be reached, and how much progress can be made depends entirely on where they already are in self recognition, how desperate, and what they really want in life. (not always what they appear to want)

Many people I've worked with, actually have more insight and recognition than they show to family and friends. Denial can be a useful defense position.
However there's a phase of the disorder where there's no recognition at all and this can last decades, according to situation, finances, self reflection and knowledge and your friend could equally be at that point, in which case you're the problem in their mind.

Having taken in the clothes, the best thing you can do for them (rather than yourself - which would be return them) is vacuum pack them into boxes of the same size, measure the space they take up and set a date that you'll be shifting the 'X foot by X foot cube' to their new or current home. State it, and write it large on an envelope, stick it by their front door, and do it.

The alternative is to recognize that for many being safely separated can help loosen the bonds, and store them for now before returning them in batches, helping to sort as they go. Riskier, if necessary groundwork hasn't been done.

I fear the way things are going, your friend is set to loose both their current home, and the one they expected to move to. Helping them in whatever ways you can to prevent that, and being there if it does, may be the best thing you can do for them as a friend at this moment.