I can't do laundry when you're in your garden

[Fairylighting]

Ok, so I really don't think IABU, but was chatting to a friend about this fiasco last night and thought it would be worth putting it to the MN jury! I'll try not to drip feed, but that means this might be rather long!

I live in the first floor flat of a Victorian terrace conversion in London. It's a share of freehold with the ground floor flat and we technically each own half of the garden; my the back half from my fire escape stairs to the back fence and them the front half, from their French doors to the bottom of my steps. The whole freehold and both properties were previously owned by the same person, who rented each flat out and the garden has never been physically split by a fence or hedge etc. When I moved in (at the about same time as my downstairs neighbours), we had a brief discussion whereby we decided to share the garden since it's very small and that seemed like the most sensible and beneficial way to enjoy it.

Since then, we've had a few (4x over 20 months) minor issues where one of them (let's call her Penelope) has sent a message to our shared WhatsApp group complaining about noise, most of which wasn't actually coming from my flat. For example, once when I was away for a weekend and another time when I was asleep in bed. Then, one morning after they had been disturbed by noise from my flat, after I'd had to make a phonecall late at night I got a WhatsApp message from Penelope requesting that I don't have the TV or radio on in my bedroom after 10.30pm Sunday-Thursday... in some ways that one was easy since I don't have a TV or radio in my bedroom.

After that, we arranged to meet up for a cuppa to discuss their issues and set a date to do so a couple of weeks later. A few days before that date I was in the garden with my mum, having a cup of tea, in the afternoon. Penelope came outside and explained that they were having guests over for lunch and felt exposed because we were in the garden, and requested that we went outside. I said that I didn't think that was a reasonable request and she went inside crying.

We then met for the planned chat and Penelope and her partner (he can be Samuel for the purposes of this thread) explained that the noise wasn't really an issue and that it hadn't happened very often, also that Penelope is a light sleeper and is probably more bothered about it because of that, so we dropped that issue. Penelope then started talking about the garden and how exposed they feel in their home, when I'm in the shared garden before Samuel suggested she might want to apologise for the events of the preceding weekend. She did so, and I explained how rude I had felt that was before she continued to explain how bothered they were by the whole issue. I expressed some sympathy but also said that I like using the garden and that it's one of the reasons I bought the flat. We agreed to share schedules so they and I could plan any events involving guests for times when the other party is away if possible. We did that over the course of the following week.

About a week later I got a message saying it was Penelope's birthday and asking whether I could therefore not use the garden, so they could relax in their home. The following day I got a message with some ideas for changing the garden in a way that would make it more open with fewer changes of level and planting. I replied to say that I was happy to chat it through but that it sounded like a lot of work and might also further reduce their privacy then the conversation went quiet.

Another week later I sent a message saying that I was considering buying some solar powered fairy lights for the garden and I got a really tetchy reply from Penelope, who was upset that they'd be shining light into their property all night long. I explained that we could just turn them on and off as we wanted to use them. This prompted another message asking me not to use the garden on the Saturday of that weekend, followed by a long message explaining how upset they are by my use of the garden and how it prevents them from doing laundry and cooking. Penelope said this has all triggered her depression and anxiety and that they're worried the lights will look tacky and encourage me to use the garden in the evenings.

I replied on WhatsApp saying I wanted to consider a proper response and drafted a long email over a few days, setting out the legal position and the fact that I want to use the garden (or at least my part of it) freely. I proposed a way forwards that included me and Samuel communicating until Penelope feels better, neither party making any changes to the garden in the short term, informing eachother of any abnormal use of the garden in advance, and that our default position would need to be a return to the legal split of the garden.

Anyway, that was two weeks ago and I haven't heard a peep since... What's happened?!

Hopefully op comes back to update

Agree with most posters here, you definitely need to erect a fence. You're so lucky to have outdoor space in London, I wouldn't be compromising for anyone!

Put a fence up and fill your garden full of lovely plants and greenery. Get a little garden chair and table set. Have people over for BBQs and drinks in the summer. Do not let her dictate to you what you do with your own garden.

And honestly, I'm not really buying the anxiety excuse. It takes a lot of balls to approach someone you barely know and tell them what to do with their own space. I know in my periods of anxiety I would just hide away, not be confronting people. I think shes a bit of a CF who thinks if she plays the woe is me card long enough, you'll stop using the garden entirely and she gets to pretend shes got the whole thing. There's nothing stopping her from creating more privacy looking into her own home if that was her problem.

You definitely need to sort out some sort of boundary in the garden .
Penny is being rather manipulative towards you and obviously is after sole use of the garden. If she’s that concerned about being seen inside her flat she should have shutters fitted , this would give her privacy and allow light into her flat. As for her suffering from anxiety I think it may be just an excuse to get her or their own way . As Sam said she’s suffering at the moment and it’s not the garden that is causing it . But if someone said to me that their partner was suffering with anxiety then I wouldn’t want to make it worse . So is Sam saying she has anxiety so you don’t use the garden? It’s something you have to ask yourself.
You’ve been very reasonable and very accommodating up to now but I think it’s time to sort the boundary out .

If it’s that bad, she needs to move.

I feel your diagram deserves a mumsnet medal 🥇 very impressive!
YANBU and a fence is definitely the way forward!!

Op do you have an update?

Put up a fence. Life is too short for this sort of crazy drama

Instead of a fence you could put a few pots of bamboo, thus giving privacy and the illusion of a partition without it being something solid

Sorry, I’m going to be unpopular here but what on earth possessed you to buy a property with a small, shared garden?

Maybe because sharing is fine by the op?

Whathappened
It’s not working though is it. Very risky to buy a property like this with a very small shared garden...you don’t know who you’re going to be sharing with and how it will work out.

Thanks for letting us know you’d not vanished OP!

I still think fence is the best way forward

You shouldn't have to put up with this but you do have to live above them and share the garden so make it as easy for yourself as you can. I wouldn't put up a permanent fence right now with all the expense and it may cause drama with her however what about some planters with fencing attached. Screwfix have got some at the moment which aren't too expensive. Means you wouldn't be looking straight into her garden. That way you could put them up for a year and next year get a proper fence once she's accepted it and is in a better place. If they decide to sell make sure you get dividers up asap and a fence up before anyone else moves in as otherwise issues will reoccur.
www.screwfix.com/p/forest-rectangular-venice-planter-1800-x-500-x-1500mm/9348k

OP is happy to have no barrier there. Its penelope that has a problem with it, so penelope can sort out any fencing herself if its such a problem, and she can put it in her garden at her expense.

That planters an expensive outlay! Its had one extremely poor review. Sounded good idea til i looked at it.

A shared garden never sounds like a good idea to me! It’s one of many reason I never want to live somewhere with common property again!

Penelope and Steve need to get over themselves. I have anxiety and other mental health issues. I truly get it. However, they need to adjust their lives so you can live yours. Whether it be clouded glass, blinds, semi see through curtains or whatever they like to make Penelope more comfortable. Re the noise, ear plugs, not the bog standard but professionally made ear plugs. I had a pair made many moons ago from when my ex snored. Best money ever spent.

I would be pragmatic... Sadly your efforts haven't worked.

Another vote for a fence... You don't want/need a discloseable problem if you want to sell. Also you don't want a curtailment of enjoyment action if it continues....

Penelope should never have bought a flat with a shared garden if she wasn't willing to share it. We had this in our last flat in London, except our share went lengthways. For the most part it worked, but often I felt because we were the upstairs flat, our downstairs neighbour thought the garden was theirs. Then sometimes we both had friends over and it was like a pub garden, it was brilliant! But when they sold up we split it down the middle with a fence before the new annoying neighbours moved in and it was BLISS. Both sides had privacy and there was no issue of us both being outside at the same time.

Oh, and the fence we put up was like this, so they shouldn't have an issue with light.
www.contemporarygarden.co.uk/products/tempo-slats-fence-panel?variant=18946446852165&currency=GBP&utm_campaign=gs-2019-03-02&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign

I understand fully where Penelope is coming from - I have very bad anxiety (I push through it most days to function as an adult but need to feel safe within my home as a result) and we have those fences that slot into concrete posts around the house. Few years ago we had a ghastly neighbour out the back of us who thought nothing of removing them constantly and wandering into our garden to work on his own shed which he'd put right up to the boundary but was constantly fiddling about with and repainting in whatever the colour of the week in fashion was. I felt so scared and intruded upon never knowing if this guy was going to be wandering around in our garden (we have french doors at the back of the house as well so the whole rear of the building felt incredibly exposed when you never knew what to expect) and I spent a good few summers cowering away at the front of the house and hiding upstairs as this guy stressed me out so much (his defence was "you know what I look like and who I am - so stop complaining about being worried). In the end we put a massive shed right up to the boundary which helped somewhat - but he'd just sit on the shed roof to get to his shed he was obsessed with fiddling about with so I still felt overlooked and intruded upon. I wouldn't ever use our conservatory as I felt frightened in case he lifted fence panels and came in, and I just felt like we were living in an extension of "his" garden with the way he went on - it was horrid and the feelings still continue today long after he's moved out to some extent - all the fence panels are now secured in so they can't be removed, but I still feel very uneasy if I can hear people in the adjoining gardens - my demon to overcome given time and it's taken a good few years since he moved out to get to the point I'll go out into the garden to sit with a coffee occasionally (and I only do that on a swing chair with a canopy so I can still feel hidden away somewhat).

Difference is - he WAS actually quite happily trespassing into our property and was a complete sociopathic twat and quite a complete thug and I was justified in feeling very intruded upon as it was a solid boundary he was completely fucking ignoring. But I mention it all as I can understand how Penelope feels in terms of not knowing if she's going to see someone outside her windows at the back of the house (and I do object to all the "completely bonkers" "fruit loop" type language incidentally).

However Penelope seems to want the entire garden on her terms which is where we differ - if I was Penelope I'd have frosted film on the french doors, and I'd be pushing to re-partition the garden with a good solid fence which would be what I would need to feel secure and relaxed... not to develop some kind of rota where you can't use the garden as she's too scared to put her washing in the machine. I can empathise with how she feels (and it might be the reality of living in the situation day to day has actually pushed her beyond what she thought she could cope with when she bought the place initially) - but she really needs to find a solution that works for both of you on both of your terms and that's probably going to mean some form of fencing and loss of light for her... good fences definitely flipped the balance into me feeling a bit less on-edge living here (and twatface moving out).

Just because shes going threw a hard time right now dosnt mean she can decided if you can use your garden or not. She needs to grow up and relise the world dosnt revolve around her. Id put a fence up and not speak to her again.

You don't want/need a discloseable problem if you want to sell.

And as far as re-selling goes, I’d much prefer a small, private garden than a bigger shared one!

@Fairylighting any update?!!

You don't want/need a discloseable problem if you want to sell.

I'd really worry about that as well, which is why I'd fence it before things turned so nasty that you had to declare 'neighbour dispute' when you're selling :(

I also say grow up, Penny, why on earth would you feel anxious or scared of a neighbour that you know and is pleasant. Get HER to put up whatever fencing she's happy with and foot the bill OR you discuss what you'd both like and split costs.

No offence but pantsy you would be better off living somewhere with your own, secluded garden if you're actually scared of neoghbours coming into your house (no idea why anyone would do this, ever, but if you're so scared you need to address your issues) you're paying for a garden you can't ever use. What if new neighbours want to be there and you can see them? Bizarre to feel scared by someone you know will be there.