To think you can't physically force somebody to have a late term abortion?

[Cringemum]

Just that really.

I was following the thread on the feminist board about the 22yo woman with LD's, who is 22 weeks pregnant, and a judge has ordered the pregnancy be terminated against her wishes.

The thread reached the maximum amount of comments before anybody was able to shed any light on my question.

I can't fathom how she can be physically forced to go through the procedure if she refuses to comply.

Could anybody shed any light on how exactly something like this could be enforced short of physically dragging her to the hospital and restraining her.

Horrible, horrible case by all accounts and my POV is that the judge has made the wrong decision - for the mother - I'm strictly pro choice in all situations but this doesn't sit right with me at all.

Many on the previous thread strongly disagree as is their prerogative but I don't understand how she can be made to go through with a termination?

Anybody?

I didn’t see the thread and haven’t heard of this case, but that decision doesn’t seem right to me at all

If you have followed the thread with any degree of comprehension you will already know that -

She doesn’t have capacity.

She is estimated to have a mental age in the range of 6-9 years.

Facts you have not chosen to put in your post. I wonder why.

Yes they restrain her. Unlikely to need to though as I suppose her family will now encourage her to comply with the court order.

I imagine she'll be sectioned and sedated for the procedure if it's been court ordered? Not claiming to know the ins and outs of the case, but if she's an adult physically and doesn't want to comply then surely that's what they will do?
Not sure how that stands with the Hippocratic oath for the doctors involved though

Well, now I know what you’re taking about, I have a different view of things. I don’t think a woman with a mental capacity of a 6- to 9-year-old child should be put through the trauma of birth and face the child being put up for adoption. She doesn’t have the wherewithal to cope with those events. I’d say it’s the lesser of two evils.

Well i imagine in a similar way to if this woman, with a mental age of 6 - 9 needed any other court-ordered treatment.

Which in the first instance would be by her mum trying to explain it to her, and getting her to comply to go to the hospital. I assume it would be done under full sedation to make the physical trauma less

Do you mean you want details of the procedures for physically overpowering an adult who needs medical treatment? I'm not sure what you hope to achieve by getting a blow-by-blow account of that, but I'm sure you can look it up online if you're that interested - this article took a little over 3 seconds to find:

www.uhs.nhs.uk/HealthProfessionals/Clinical-law-updates/Restrainingadultpatientsinhospital.aspx

I've read the thread with perfect comprehension thank you, however it doesn't change my personal opinion which we are all entitled to have and doesn't have to fall in line with the majority.

I wasn't looking for another moral debate I just couldn't understand how something like this could be enforced without compliance.

Ah, sedation, that makes sense under the circumstances.

Poor poor woman.

its unlikely she would be detained under a section of the mental health act (if that's what you mean by sectioned fromnowhere) because that's to do with mental health treatment and nothing to do with mental capacity.

If she agrees to go willingly then it will be dealt with much like a dentists appointment where she needed fillings (quite often for people with LDs this can happen under GA if necessary). So a 'best interests decision' would be made on the day about how best to transport her there, settle her down etc.

If she refuses to go then it would be back to the court of protection to get them to agree that she can be 'conveyed against her will'. But the professionals involved would have to demonstrate that they had considered and failed at all other options to get her there peacefully before the COP would agree to that.

People with learning disabilities and mental health difficulties are given treatment against their consent all the time. Whether it is always in their best interests is open to debate.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

It's a horribly sad case all round. I don't envy the judge who has to make the decision.

It's a huge grey area. I see so many sen threads on different boards about mums who would medication to stop their daughters period or have implant fitted but most doctors refuse due to patient choice.

It’s so disingenuous to leave our the issue of her mental capacity OP. This isn’t a simple issue of being pro choice or not. Someone who lacks capacity isn’t capable of making that choice, and it’s to their detriment to pretend otherwise.

I didn't want a blow by blow account of how to overpower a vulnerable adult and force treatment no.

I posted the question because in my naivety i assumed that although the decision had been made, a degree of consent would still be needed, if not from the pregnant mother herself then her next of kin.

I genuinely could not understand how somebody could be forced to undergo an operation against their will.

Sedation did not occur to me, that in itself would be traumatizing for her if she is objecting up until the point of the procedure.

She would surely have a general anaesthetic since she'd be having a surgical procedure.

Do you think birthing a full term baby will be more or less traumatising?

And what of the "father"? What sort of a man impregnates a person with mental capacity of a child?

The judge took the view that the trauma of the procedure would be less than the trauma of childbirth and then losing the child to adoption.

It’s so disingenuous to leave our the issue of her mental capacity OP

Yep I suspect that the OP did that so posters not familiar with the previous thread would post opinions that supported their viewpoint that this was immoral.

Ah, sedation, that makes sense under the circumstances.

I hardly read every post on the previous thread and even I know many posters alluded to this being what might happen. You should have just left the comments to the other thread it didn't need a second thread on the issue.

@britnay The police are investigating the circumstances of how the baby was conceived.

I assumed the story had reached most people as it's high profile. I wasn't being purposely misleading by leaving information out as I made reference to the initial thread in my OP.

I'm not sure if we know if it is against her will or not though? We don't know her level of understanding about the situation.

Even if she (even with a lack of capacity) and everyone involved in her care agreed that terminating the pregnancy was the best course of action a decision that important should always have been agreed by the court of protection any way, which is what has happened.

@Cringemum
The next of kin isn't allowed to
consent on someone's behalf. No one can. It's a judgement based on what is in the best interests of the person deemed not to have capacity. NOK wishes will be taken into account, along with other factors. That's what happened in this case.

I assumed that although the decision had been made, a degree of consent would still be needed, if not from the pregnant mother herself then her next of kin.

Why? Parents don’t have to consent, not if they don’t have her best interests at heart, otherwise how would any abused child be removed from unfit parents? Her mother is apparently a trained midwife - what on earth was she thinking?

I'm shocked that so few people think it's barbaric to physically restrain and sedate a vulnerable woman with learning disabilities and force her to undergo a late term termination.

It is also said that she has a mood disorder, let's say hypothetically that the mood disorder is depression - what if being forced to undergo a termination against her will pushes her over the edge and she harms herself? Not impossible in these circumstances.

A quote from the judge;

""I have to operate in (her) best interests, not on society's views of termination."

In such an exceptionally complex case, this statement is absolutely key.