To think you can't physically force somebody to have a late term abortion?

[Cringemum]

Just that really.

I was following the thread on the feminist board about the 22yo woman with LD's, who is 22 weeks pregnant, and a judge has ordered the pregnancy be terminated against her wishes.

The thread reached the maximum amount of comments before anybody was able to shed any light on my question.

I can't fathom how she can be physically forced to go through the procedure if she refuses to comply.

Could anybody shed any light on how exactly something like this could be enforced short of physically dragging her to the hospital and restraining her.

Horrible, horrible case by all accounts and my POV is that the judge has made the wrong decision - for the mother - I'm strictly pro choice in all situations but this doesn't sit right with me at all.

Many on the previous thread strongly disagree as is their prerogative but I don't understand how she can be made to go through with a termination?

Anybody?

I assumed that although the decision had been made, a degree of consent would still be needed, if not from the pregnant mother herself then her next of kin.

And the frameworks of the Court of Protection were explained to you countless times on that thread. As were the issues surrounding legal capacity (to consent) and what happens when there is no capacity.

It would be great if this thread were not subject to the screeds of purple prose projection that scarred the FWR thread. It is intensely disrespectful to the vulnerable adult, and her rights to dignity and privacy.

The full judgement in this distressing case has not been published. There is good reason for that, not least the privacy and dignity of a vulnerable adult. And without the full judgement all we have is unseemly projection and speculation.

^^sorry that is a D&E

Why do pro-lifers come on MN and post misleading things whilst pretending to be pro-choice? At least have the integrity to own your views, ffs.

D&E is not necessarily available for her, we can most certainly say that. Most terminations of that late stage involve labour.

We're not pro-lifers. This isn't about the right to a termination. It's about the right not to be forced into a termination.

Judges don't always get it right and there's plenty of times they've gotten it wrong.

We don't know that a different judge would have made the same decision. You can say that it's likely they would, but how can you know for sure.

It's a clear breach of the woman's human rights glossed over with the reccomendarion that it's in her best interests.

I don't think a forced abortion is in anybodies best interests if it's not a life or death situation for the mother.

Yes ideally she wouldn't be pregnant in the first place, but she is, and she's now 22 weeks in gestation.

Forcing a termination is not a quick fix nor will it be the end of the woman's suffering.

Can you imagine being forced to have a termination you don't want? Yes she has a moderate to severe learning disability but she still has rights.

I'm speaking as somebody who's mother has a moderate learning disability who needed the live-in support of my grandparents to raise me so I'm not completely ignorant.

If she has the mental capacity of a 6-9 year old, does she even know what an abortion is, or to be pregnant?

Lots of dodgy stuff about this case. How did the women get pregnant? Who is the father? How can she consent to sex if she has no capacity?

And The woman’s mother, a former midwife who opposes abortion, had offered to care for the child with her daughter’s help. So did she want her dd to be pregnant?

OP, if you don't want the woman to have an abortion, how would you deal with the situation? With birth, possible complications, with looking after the baby? At which point you have to consider the baby's needs and rights as much as the mother's. What are your ideas?

@SemperIdem

Nope I am pro choice in all circumstances, except she doesn't have the choice.

I am against forced abortion

Not abortion.

It's about the right not to be forced into a termination

When so some can't make a decision themselves then an appointed person makes it for them in their best interests. It's not forcing someone as well you know if you were on the other thread.

It is awful but a woman with this mental capacity would find pregnancy and motherhood difficult to cope with, surely?

I worked in a psychiatric hospital and we had a young woman who didn't understand periods. She refused to wear sanpro and we had to keep her in the ward each time and put her in the bath every few hours, mop the floor, clean her chair and change her clothes. The pain made her bad tempered and it was very unpleasant all round. Bringing a baby in to this would have been madness.

Childbirth can be a life or death situation for the mother.

Trauma of abortion or trauma of childbirth there is no easy option.

And what if the man who got her pregnant in the first place. Was she abused?

It is forcing because she has stated that she doesn't want a termination.

I appreciate the logistical concerns of that are extremely unsavoury. And that's why we're particularly worried about the impact of that on her.

It's a clear breach of the woman's human rights glossed over with the reccomendarion that it's in her best interests

It’s a pretty despicable mischaracterisation for you to describe as ‘glossing over’ the process by which this incredibly difficult decision has been made.

Many experts have had input into this decision, and on the basis of their advice the judge has made a decision about what will cause the least harm to this woman. How can you possibly think your uninformed opinion must be right, and theirs wrong?

The only justification I can see for your stance is that you believe it’s always better to carry a pregnancy to term than to abort. There’s no other reason why you would be arguing for it in this case. So stop the lies about being pro-choice when it’s very obvious you’re actually anti-abortion.

We don't know if she was abused or not.

You think this is worse than someone who is essentially a child herself with very limited capacity having to give birth? And then what happens to the child? Is goes into the system?

This absolutely sounds like damage limitation to me. Of course it's tragic, but the other potential outcomes don't sound any less tragic.

We don't know that a different judge would have made the same decision. You can say that it's likely they would, but how can you know for sure.

Your being deliberately obtuse now and clutching at straws to further your own agenda. The fact remains the neither outcome is a good one and the judge who had all the facts has come to this decision. You do not have all the facts so how can you state they might have got it wrong. Would you be content if 2 judges made the same agreement? The fact remains that this decision is not being made in the interests of the foetus but in the interests of the mother, she has to come first and that's why this decision has been reached.

Unless we were sat the COP at the time we have no idea what was said & what facts were presented.
For all we know the young woman may think she has a tummy ache & not fully understand that she is actually carrying a baby inside of her.
One of my friends has a DNiece with very similar LDs/cognitive ability & similar real age to the woman in this case.
Friends DNiece has numerous dolls which she call her babies. She treats them like real babies, gets extremely upset if one goes missing or if any younger relations want to play with her babies (dolls). However if the babies (dolls) have been naughty they get smacked hard, thrown across the room or in one case put in the dustbin.
Friends DNiece also wants a real baby & is going to marry everyone in One Direction.
Though at other times babies are smelly, stinky & noisy & she's never getting married.
Friend's DNiece has no capacity & can only live at home with parents or in residential care. She is unable to look after herself. And unfortunately in the past was sexually abused by a care worker.

If the woman in the court case is similar to Friend's DNiece then I can see why the Judge had to make the decision she did lesser of the evils.

However as I pointed out earlier the woman in the court case may say she has a baby in her tummy & thinks she understands but doesn't understand how it gets out & that a baby is dependent on its mother/care giver.

The Judge can only make a decision on all the evidence given.
An extremely hard & sad case.

My DD is 8. There is no way I would allow her to go through the trauma of childbirth, no matter how much she wanted to.

My DD would be having a forced abortion and I fully support that happening in this case for the same reasons.

She is very likely to have to give birth in any event. Or if not, undergo an extremely invasive surgical procedure without her consent.

Well as the baby is already 22 weeks and would be viable outside the womb within the next few weeks I think she should be allowed to continue the pregnancy supported to term if she and her mother have expressed a wish to do so. It's not as if she could just take a tablet at this stage, she would need surgery.

It's a bit late to be looking at proposed quick fixes isn't it.

The woman will already be overcome with hormonal and physical changes, aborting now isn't going to prevent the inevitable hormonal shift or potential mental decline.

Pospective adopters could be found who would be able to take care of the baby and provide updates if the mother/grandmother wanted that. Yes not all adoptions are rosy but I'm sure the family would prefer to know the baby is being cared for, as opposed to being disposed of as surgical waste.

Adoption is far more humane than forcing a late term abortion on an unwilling young woman with a learning disability.

Imagine if this became the norm with vulnerable adults with LD's, why don't we just sterilize them all in that case? Because it's inhumane.

Why do you constantly refer to her as a woman? Physically she may be, but mentally she’s not. How many 6 year-olds could cope with a menstrual cycle?

I’m not sure of your motives with this thread.

Op why do you think you know better than the court and team of medical professionals who actually know the full story?

She has the IQ of a six to nine year old. She isn't actually a child.

@Cringemum I agree with you that the wrong decision has been made.
Do remember that the state has large tentacles and a lot of people here have a vested interest (jobs etc) in believing this was completely necessary.

At first it did seem like the judges decision and her reasoning was fair, but on reflection I've been convinced that something akin to a crime has been committed