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AIBU?

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To think you can't physically force somebody to have a late term abortion?

524 replies

Cringemum · 24/06/2019 14:16

Just that really.

I was following the thread on the feminist board about the 22yo woman with LD's, who is 22 weeks pregnant, and a judge has ordered the pregnancy be terminated against her wishes.

The thread reached the maximum amount of comments before anybody was able to shed any light on my question.

I can't fathom how she can be physically forced to go through the procedure if she refuses to comply.

Could anybody shed any light on how exactly something like this could be enforced short of physically dragging her to the hospital and restraining her.

Horrible, horrible case by all accounts and my POV is that the judge has made the wrong decision - for the mother - I'm strictly pro choice in all situations but this doesn't sit right with me at all.

Many on the previous thread strongly disagree as is their prerogative but I don't understand how she can be made to go through with a termination?

Anybody?

OP posts:
FakeUsername · 25/06/2019 08:38

@GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit my concern about ‘best interests’ is the subjectivity and restriction of resources

E.g. it was felt at one stage my sister was place in supported housing, but she was allowed no visitors either friends or partners. I understand the best interests bit about the warden and help, but being provided in accommodation that for ease meant funding a low number of staff meant they couldn’t supervise visitors. For a woman of 22 it was incredibly isolating and she rebelled against a curfew also. Ironically she was evicted, but her time out was at a club for adults with learning difficulties to help them socialise. I think she needed the contact and friendships desperately.

On eviction she was placed elsewhere, but the first place left her with dual housing forms which she couldn’t read. She was then harassed by debt collectors and nearly lost the new place when hospitalised for her mental state.

Another occasion, while inpatient for a year as a psychiatric patient her reports of physical symptoms were dismissed wholly as MH. When out, with our advocacy, she was found to require brain surgery and the symptoms (and MH) were largely attributed to that.

A lot of her MH needs are heightened from poor school experience and being exposed to people she was vulnerable to. Her abuser was a highly intelligent fellow inpatient.

I have personally over the years gone against professionals over care, to support her. A big one being medication. I was right it was making her worse. Plus she was not psychotic, she was a someone with poor speech trying to explain brain damage symptoms from illness progressing

What I’m trying to say is we can’t be careful enough giving professionals absolute power in deciding best interests, and when it’s in the case of vulnerable people and women’s reproduction we need even more care. The system has a shit load of issues. I e interacted with many of my sisters friends and other carers over the years and I’m not painting a unique picture. My own child also has LD, I’m already being told things are different to what I know through longer periods of observation. For example her turning and turning in appointments, it was stereotypical behaviour and she lacked imagination (she’s non-verbal). I enrolled her in dance classes as I knew she was watching it obsessively on YouTube. She loved it, does well in it, learned to coordinate and stopped the repetitive physical movements. She was just dancing in her own world. These things are so easy to get wrong

PouncerDarling · 25/06/2019 09:04

I agree with the UN's recommendations that the individual's views need to be given much more weight. This woman clearly did not want a termination. And it's evident from going by the culture of her surroundings, including her religion, that a late term termination would not be her choice. It's extremely rare for any woman to choose a late term termination for social reasons.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 25/06/2019 09:07

@fakeusername you sound like an amazing mother and sister. Your sister and child are lucky to have you to advocate for them.

LangCleg · 25/06/2019 09:21

those of us on this thread trying to explain the process of the decision haven't really said the first judge made the right decision. We've been trying to explain why the decision may have been reached. We do not know the minutiae of the case.

Precisely. That anyone could think of either the original decision or the appeal decision as some kind of victory or defeat for their own views - or projections or assumptions made on incomplete information - is quite shocking. As is the nigh-on triumphalist tone taken by some. An awful choice was before the court and a vulnerable adult will suffer whichever choice was made.

Indicative of a continuing and fundamental failure to understand the purpose and process of protection mechanisms in the UK, including the CoP.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 25/06/2019 09:35

And @PouncerDarling and rightly or wrongly her social circumstances would have impacted on her experience of the abortion anyway.

On the last thread everyone said I was being ridiculous for saying there would be prayers and probably a funeral service and that her mother and community would have become very emotional about it and this would quite inevitably have had an impact on her.

Personally I think this is likely given that not 24 hours had gone past from the judgement and bishops were making statements etc etc

I am not saying this is correct only that when considering some ones best interests you need to take into account the social context in which they live

PouncerDarling · 25/06/2019 10:04

@LangCleg

If you think a calm discussion between the people posting on this, examining criticism of the justice system from the UN, personal accounts from people about their experiences of the management of similar issues in their family, and speculation about the religious impact on decisions such as this, is triumphalism, it would appear your perspective is skewed. Human rights issues affect us all and of course it is entirely rational and understandable that such a contentious issue would open up areas for discussion. No one is getting out the bunting. The one thing that has united us all on this matter is deep concern for this woman.

PouncerDarling · 25/06/2019 10:07

@GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit

I agree that the family being in mourning over what they would have perceived as a court ordered murder would have absolutely had an impact on their ability to provide care for the woman. The mother and grandmother would have been beyond distraught.

Cringemum · 25/06/2019 10:39

@fakeusername I'm sorry for what your sister went through, her experiences do highlight how important it is that vulnerable adults have somebody other than the health professionals to advocate for them

OP posts:
gingerpaleandproud · 25/06/2019 11:42

@Cringemum they do. They are provided an Independent Mental Capacity Advocate. It's part of the process. But feel free to continue making incorrect assumptions.

PouncerDarling · 25/06/2019 11:52

@gingerpaleandproud

Nobody said they didn't. But this highlights exactly how important that role is.

HebeMumsnet · 25/06/2019 13:20

Afternoon, everyone.

We're a bit concerned about of the level of speculation in some of the posts here. Obviously there are real people involved here and vulnerable people, too, and we wouldn't want to cause anyone involved any distress if they happened to be reading.

We do understand that this is obviously a story that has attracted interest and is an interesting ethical debate but we just wanted to remind everyone that we are talking about people's real lives as well. We know it's easy to forget sometimes when you're in the middle of a discussion like this.

We're going to have a read of the thread and might make a few deletions here and there.

Isatis · 25/06/2019 14:40

It would be very rash to say that the Court of Appeal judgment vindicates anything because, as was pointed out in the opposite scenario, the existence of further avenues of appeal involves an acknowledgment that they too are fallible. It may of course mean that the passage of time will mean that they won't be pursued, and we will all simply have to hope and pray that continuing the pregnancy won't exacerbate the mother's psychosis, she won't be in danger during the birth, and the baby won't be in danger either.

Lizzie3869 · 25/06/2019 15:54

Yes, and we also need to hope that SS, who will be involved, make the right decisions for the future of this child. And also that those involved in this woman's future care take steps to ensure, as far as they're able, that she doesn't get pregnant again.

Lookingatthestars89 · 25/06/2019 17:52

@PouncerDarling I disagree about pain. I have delivered a 8lb and two 6lb babies - I have also delivered a 3lb baby and one at 14 weeks - all of them the pain was excruciating Sad

CornishMaid1 · 25/06/2019 23:09

The decision of the Court of Protection judge was not wrong. The decision of the Court of Appeal is not wrong. If they appeal to the Supreme Court that won't be wrong either.

There is no right or wrong in this. Just people trying to do what is best for a woman who does not have capacity to decide it for herself.

There are not many details - the news says she wants a baby, not whether she does not want a termination (which is not the same) nor whether she understands what having the baby entails.

Her mother and social worker want her to keep the pregnancy. The hospital trust, two consultants, her obstetrician and two psychiatrists say that terminating would be the lesser of two evils as she could cope with that but not the trauma of birth.

There is no victory either way, whatever the church and the pro-life groups are now saying in the press. I hope she gets the support she needs either way.

The worst part for me was that to explain the termination to her she was being told that she would be going to sleep and when she wakes up the baby would no longer be in her tummy but she would be getting a new doll to play with. That is just heartbreaking.

AnAC12UCOinanOCG · 26/06/2019 06:45

As is the nigh-on triumphalist tone taken by some.

Yes, that is making my skin crawl. One poster seems gleeful that this lady is now going to go through labour and have her baby removed and that is so disturbing.

FakeUsername · 26/06/2019 08:13

I’ve looked through but I honestly can’t see any gleeful posts, the tone seems pretty sad overall. Sad for the situation, then a discussion?

As I’ve said, it’s really sad all round and I wish the woman involved the best outcome that is possible

Lougle · 26/06/2019 10:03

I wish people would understand that capacity is a really complex thing. I took DD1 to minor injuries two days ago, with a hurt arm. She seems, superficially, to be very verbal. But when she was asked how her pain was 'on a scale of one to ten' she could only say 'well 10 must mean very bad....' The nurse very quickly realised that DD1 was not going to be able to assess her pain and give it a scale rating.

You can't just restrain, lock up, or otherwise curtail the freedom of adults with LD. They have rights.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 26/06/2019 10:39

I was relieved to hear the decision was overturned. Because I thought it sounded like a bad decision for reasons I stated about 20 times and so won't do so again.

I am under no delusions that things will now be easy for this woman and her family. Though I very much hope that it will work out well for them and that they will get the support they need.

I was interested in having a more general discussion about how we deal with medical treatment and decisions for people without capacity in this country and whether the system could be better. Specifically I read some strong criticisms of our systems which were made by the UN committee for disabilities.

But really no one was that interested in engaging with that. Which is fair enough really.

MontStMichel · 26/06/2019 11:18

But we don't know that she will be physically restrained or sedated. If everyone around her behaves professionally with compassion and respect then there's no reason why she won't calmly walk in there herself and have the general anaesthetic and surgery just like you or I.

ITA with Lougle. I have an adult DD with LD, who does not have mental capacity. Her IQ is untestable per the last psychology report - psychologists can only say she does not meet the criteria for SLD, so she must be functioning at a MLD level. I would put her emotionally at about age 4. She can't get pregnant, because she is on Depo injections every 10 weeks for medical reasons.

She sees doctors regularly in a field, where LD goes with the territory. Even ones who have seen her every 3 months for years have failed to notice, she cannot understand a word they say beyond "Hello, how are you?" She came out of their appointments, complaining how bored she was. So, I would not place any reliance on what consultants or Independent Mental Health Advocates think about the comprehension of the woman in this case, unless a speech therapist was there to ensure communication was concrete enough for her comprehension.

DD has challenging behaviour and can be in a residential placement for years; the care staff will still ask our advice regularly on how to handle her in certain situations - such as she is refusing to take her meds. So, even people who work with her day in day out, do not fully understand what makes her tick; and they certainly do not understand the extent of her different LD.

DD does know what sex, pregnancy, childbirth and having a baby are; although she cannot imagine what they are actually like (although I couldn't until I'd been through it). She has wanted a baby since she was 18 and has asked every doctor she sees, if she can have one. If somebody told her there is say a 1 in a 1,000 risk to you in natural childbirth, whereas its 1 in 200 with a CS, mainly due to the anaesthetic, she would have no idea what that meant, beyond she could die.

She suffers considerable pain regularly (screaming her head off), and has probably had multiple x rays of most parts of the body, especially the skull. She does have GA's regularly for removal of fractured teeth, MRIs or to have a battery placed in her chest through an incision. I could get her to have a GA, just by saying:

"The man is going to put a needle in your hand. You are used to this. They do it in A & E all the time. You will go to sleep. You will feel no pain. You will wake up. "

I cannot imagine her in natural childbirth, but I would only see a CS under GA, as a step up from the surgery she has (which she does agree to; while we may have a best interests meeting, nobody would force her to do it).

However, if I told her it was to kill the baby in her tummy, she would be absolutely devastated. She has a history of emotional problems, including depression and the MH problems following a forced abortion would be enormous IMO, and her being held down and restrained could cause nightmares and PTSD for years, probably decades. She would lose all trust in us, and it would cause havoc in her relationship with us; and any care staff, who have to look after her in the future (and she is problematic as it is, but its mainly verbal aggression so far).

MontStMichel · 26/06/2019 11:47

PS - the number one reason, DD can't understand doctors is because they do not talk to her clearly in plain English at a concrete level, using Anglo Saxon words of one syllable if possible. Instead, they talk too fast, using polysyllabic words, slang, abstract concepts and language.

Lougle · 26/06/2019 12:59

FlowersMontStMichael. Exactly. DD1 was in tears two days ago, because a girl gave her a bracelet earlier this year, and now wants it back. She said she was letting her borrow it for a few days. DD1 thought it was a present. I asked her what the teacher said, and she said "teacher told me give back, but I said I'm not doing that because gave it to me a long time ago".

It took a lot of very patient explanation with short words and examples to get DD1 to understand that she had to give it back. You can't use complex phrases - there's too much detail.

DD1's nurse said "no PE tomorrow, because you have an ouchy". That was actually a perfect level for her.

twicemummy1 · 26/06/2019 18:25

Health professionals are often sorely lacking in understanding. For example they don't understand the links between domestic violence and mental health issues in women. Knowing this, it makes me wonder how capable they are in assessing women.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 17/07/2019 00:12

Just posting the link to the judgement showing why the decision was overturned on appeal.

www.judiciary.uk/judgments/re-ab-termination-of-pregnancy/

Seems to be about not enough weight being given to the woman's views or those caring for her and her social worker.

Also the medical evidence being on balance rather than totally clear cut and some of the possible future outcomes being speculative.

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