To think you can't physically force somebody to have a late term abortion?

[Cringemum]

Just that really.

I was following the thread on the feminist board about the 22yo woman with LD's, who is 22 weeks pregnant, and a judge has ordered the pregnancy be terminated against her wishes.

The thread reached the maximum amount of comments before anybody was able to shed any light on my question.

I can't fathom how she can be physically forced to go through the procedure if she refuses to comply.

Could anybody shed any light on how exactly something like this could be enforced short of physically dragging her to the hospital and restraining her.

Horrible, horrible case by all accounts and my POV is that the judge has made the wrong decision - for the mother - I'm strictly pro choice in all situations but this doesn't sit right with me at all.

Many on the previous thread strongly disagree as is their prerogative but I don't understand how she can be made to go through with a termination?

Anybody?

I’m not sure of your motives with this thread.

I think the motives are pretty clear, especially after that last post. I cannot honestly see how the Op thinks its better to force this 22 year old to go through pregnancy and birth than to put an end to the situation as soon as possible. It sounds like she thinks the poor lady should be used as a human incubator so that someone can adopt her child.

“Adoption is far more humane than forcing a late term abortion on an unwilling young woman with a learning disability.

Imagine if this became the norm with vulnerable adults with LD's, why don't we just sterilize them all in that case? Because it's inhumane.”

Something about the way you’ve worded this has made me wonder- do you have any idea how frequently children whose parents have LD are taken away from them by the courts because the parents prove to be incapable of caring for the children to an acceptable standard?

These are parents whose LD were not deemed sufficient enough to take action like forced abortion, and they we’re given support and opportunities to raise their family. The way you’re talking about humans treatment makes me wonder if you know this?

I truly cannot comprehend anybody thinking it's better for this woman with the mental capacity of a young child to be forced to carry to term (with all the potentially-confusing appointments and monitoring that would entail, as well as the physical discomfort and pain), GIVE BIRTH, and then inevitably have the baby taken away from her than to have an abortion now.

She is a young woman with disabilities she is not a child.

My mother has a moderate learning disability and it would be an insult to refer to her as a child.

I'm shocked that so few people think it's barbaric to physically restrain and sedate a vulnerable woman with learning disabilities and force her to undergo a late term termination.

I'm shocked that you left out of your OP the most salient point that she has a mental age of 6-9. It renders your comments unreliable because we don't know what else you may have omitted.

In the circumstances I think the judge made the right decision and the termination will be less terrifying for her than giving birth and her child being removed for adoption.

I suggest you find somewhere else to preach your pro-life stance.

Pospective adopters could be found who would be able to take care of the baby and provide updates if the mother/grandmother wanted that. Yes not all adoptions are rosy but I'm sure the family would prefer to know the baby is being cared for, as opposed to being disposed of as surgical waste.

‘Surgical waste’ - at least you’re flying your true anti abortion colours proudly now.

What if she refused to give the baby up for adoption?

Adoption is far more humane than forcing a late term abortion on an unwilling young woman with a learning disability.

Why do you think forced adoption is less inhumane than forced abortion? The end result is the same for the young woman - she has no baby. Only in your preferred scenario, she has to go through a significantly more painful and dangerous process which she doesn’t understand first.

Imagine if this became the norm with vulnerable adults with LD's, why don't we just sterilize them all in that case? Because it's inhumane.

The reason we don’t sterilise them is because it’s a needless surgery when they shouldn’t be getting pregnant in the first place because their carers should be taking better care of them. No person with a mental capacity of 8 should ever be put in a position where they can get pregnant, and it’s a failing that it happened in this case. Sterilisation isn’t the answer - better safeguarding is.

@AyBeeCee10 She originally posted the questions in FWR. It's a feminist prerogative to question and judge court and state decisions. Can you imagine if feminists blithely went along with the ridiculous rulings that courts make all the time against women's best interests !!

She is a young woman with disabilities she is not a child

She has the mental capacity of a child! That’s what matters! The age of her body is irrelevant here because capacity is based on your mental age.

Well as the baby is already 22 weeks and would be viable outside the womb within the next few weeks I think she should be allowed to continue the pregnancy supported to term if she and her mother have expressed a wish to do so

It's neither here nor there what her mother's wishes are,if that were an option the the judge would have explored it.

She might be too ill to continue with the pregnancy or become to ill if she continues with the pregnancy. The meds she may be on might not be compatible with pregnancy.

You have no idea.

You can accuse me of having a pro life agenda all you like.

I support abortion completely, but never when it is forced.

Perhaps if the Mother had made sure her DD was on long term contraception like the implant then the DD would not be in this position.
It is very naive to think just because someone has the mental capacity of a 6 -9 year equals that they are never going to have sex or god forbid be taken advantage of & raped.
Friend's DNiece has the implant just in case as prevention is always better than cure.

Can you imagine being forced to have a termination you don't want?

I have the capacity of an adult and am capable of both fully comprehending and consenting to either abortion, or pregnancy and childbirth, so frankly that's irrelevant.

Adoption is far more humane than forcing a late term abortion on an unwilling young woman with a learning disability.

It is not in the best interests of someone that cannot understand the physical and psychological trauma of childbirth to go through that process and have a newborn removed from them. As a woman with the capacity of a 6-9 year old she has been deemed incapable of understanding or consenting to continuing the pregnancy, it's highly unlikely that she comprehends and has a moral objection to abortion regardless of whether it is an early or late stage procedure, or even that she fully comprehends the concept of pregnancy.

The most important this at this point is minimising distress to her both now and in the future.

Well as the baby is already 22 weeks and would be viable outside the womb within the next few weeks

Your agenda is clear. She is not a human incubator that should just stay pregnant to give birth to a viable baby at risk to her own health. She is an individual who cannot make these decisions for herself and therefore people in possession of the all of the facts have made a difficult decision in her interests. The viability of the foetus is completely irrelevant in determining what is best for her as a person and her continued health.

I support abortion completely, but never when it is forced

But this isn't forced abortion in the way you are presenting it.

My mother has a moderate learning disability and it would be an insult to refer to her as a child.

OP. We can see - and understand - that you have a personal and emotional investment in this.

But the vulnerable adult in this case is not your mother. You do not know the facts of this case because - quite rightly - CoP judgements are often not published so that the privacy and dignity of the vulnerable adult are protected.

Every case is different. Every case is considered with the best interests of the specific vulnerable person in mind. Capacity is neither static nor fixed.

You have had all this explained to you over and over again.

It is disrespectful to the woman in this case to projection emotions and fact-free speculations onto her. The CoP is not infallible. Nobody is saying it is. But this country does have evolved systems that exist to protect adults who lack capacity. Without those frameworks and systems, the country would be a much worse place for the vulnerable.

If I were the mother I'd be taking the daughter overseas to have the baby.

I suspect it would do the woman more harm to terminate the pregnancy, in a forced way, at such a late stage. She is already pregnant.

I think that when the full judgment is available, the judge's reasons will be very well thought out, will weigh up all the relevant factors and treat this poor young woman with as much dignity as anyuone would wish.

This is a big case for Judge Lieven, who is relatively new to this kind of case (although I believe she has some experience of human rights work from her days at the bar). She is very able (wouldn't have got the Crossrail gig if she wasn't) and all judges exercise a considerable degree of care when it comes to such big cases. (Anyone who would like to see an example of a wonderfully compassionate and well-thought judgment should take a look at the judgment in the Maltese conjoined twins case from the early noughties).

While this decision is a difficult one, I think that termination will possibly be less traumatic for this young woman than giving birth and having her baby taken away. It's clear that she does not have capacity to bring up a child.

This is a capacity debate. If she is deemed not to have capacity she cannot make this decision unfortunately and this is a very real worry for families and careers of adults with LD who may look like adults and do ‘adult’ things like have sex but they do not have the capacity to fully understand decisions, consequences/outcomes. It would also be very traumatic to put someone through the agony of childbirth and adoption who lacks capacity.

I was going to question how this young woman got PG sorry if I have missed this

It's not about pro choice or pro life agenda, it's about somebody being forced to undergo a late termination that they do not want - because they have LD's.

There are women who choose to have late term abortions because it is the right decision for them, and they still end up traumatised as a result of it despite it being something they consented to.

What if the termination goes ahead and the woman is put on long term contraception that then fails and she becomes pregnant again? Should the court put her through the trauma twice?

Not all adults with LD's need supervising 24 hours a day and plenty have romantic relationships, this could well happen again despite the best efforts of those closest to her, would it be acceptable to put her through this twice?

It sets a worrying precedent that it's ok to force abortions on people that do not consent, because they have LD's.

The abortion can not be called forced. This is because this poor young woman does not have capacity. This is one of the only things we know about her. And no, we don’t know that is is opposed to the abortion we do know that she wants a baby but that is completely different.

Because this woman does not have capacity this means that she does not understand fully what it means to be pregnant, carry a baby to term, give birth and certainly can not be the primary caregiver. People who know this woman much better than you do have decided this, through careful research and consideration. A termination is the lesser of two evils in this very sad situation.

what a terrible thing to happen you this woman. there is no easy answer. giving birth would be terrifying ( i imagine) and having a termination will be too.
can I just say that referring to this woman as a child, because she has Ld's is wrong. she is not a child.

@Cringemum

They will probably ensure she is given the implant, depo injection or some form of daily contraceptive to prevent this happening again