To think you can't physically force somebody to have a late term abortion?

[Cringemum]

Just that really.

I was following the thread on the feminist board about the 22yo woman with LD's, who is 22 weeks pregnant, and a judge has ordered the pregnancy be terminated against her wishes.

The thread reached the maximum amount of comments before anybody was able to shed any light on my question.

I can't fathom how she can be physically forced to go through the procedure if she refuses to comply.

Could anybody shed any light on how exactly something like this could be enforced short of physically dragging her to the hospital and restraining her.

Horrible, horrible case by all accounts and my POV is that the judge has made the wrong decision - for the mother - I'm strictly pro choice in all situations but this doesn't sit right with me at all.

Many on the previous thread strongly disagree as is their prerogative but I don't understand how she can be made to go through with a termination?

Anybody?

This woman is not having a termination purely because she has LDs. She is having a termination because this is a very sensitive and complex case of which we are not privy to all the information.

I hope comment doesn't sound insensitive but I imagine for a woman like this, if the pregnancy were to go ahead, ideally she would give birth via c section rather than be put through the pain of childbirth?

I understand that a c section could also be traumatic, but would it be as traumatic as undergoing a late stage termination?

I think this is terribly sad and I feel awful for the woman involved.

because they have LDs

NO. Because they lack capacity.

No matter how many times you say otherwise.

The OP is not pro-life. That's absolutely certain.

it's about somebody being forced to undergo a late termination that they do not want

How do you know she doesn't want a termination? She might say she does or she might say she doesn't, who knows. However she may say that she wants to keep the baby but that's not going to happen either so would you refer to that as a forced adoption?

Usually at BPAS the surgical option post 20 weeks is still an overnight procedure.... they put the dilators in the night before, you go to a nearby hotel and come back the next day for the D&E under sedation. I’m sure she will be admitted to a hospital for the procedure although it’s so hard to find a general obs and gynae person to do these now....

I support abortion completely, but never when it is forced.

You support forced adoption though, which indicates your views have nothing to do with what this woman wants. She wants to keep the baby. You’re saying she should be forced to give up the baby, but not before going through an inevitably traumatic and painful process.

You are not pro-choice, you are simply anti-abortion.

op but that is exactly why it was so disingenuous to leave out the judgement on her capacity!

Of course we would all back you and be in uproar if someone had made a judgement that implies ALL people with ANY form of LD can be forced into an abortion. That would be a total abomination!

But that isn't what happened. A single case has been considered involving someone with a very clearly defined lack of capacity that applies to her and her alone. It doesn't and won't extend to anyone else whatsoever. If another woman with the same condition were to become pregnant tomorrow, this case would not have any bearing. Her condition would be examined in exactly the same detail and an individual decision reached.

CS very very dangerous at this gestation, life threatening in fact and would not normally be an option.

I suspect it would do the woman more harm to terminate the pregnancy, in a forced way, at such a late stage. She is already pregnant

Then you suspect incorrectly as for some women carrying to term and giving birth can be dangerous physically and mentally.

This is a deeply tragic case and all the judge can do is try and find the least worst outcome for the individual concerned.

Of course because of the privacy of the individual there are no doubt many factors that we can’t know. Whether this is the right decision in this case I have no way of knowing but I am glad that there are intelligent, empathetic and right thinking judges who step up to do court of protection work and make decisions on behalf of the most vulnerable people in a careful manner having closely looked into the facts. Because I’m extremely glad I don’t have to make these types of decisions.

I think forced abortion is totally wrong too.

she has the mental capacity of a child? If so, i think the state's time would be better spent finding her rapist. The state failed to protect her from the consequences of rape, then intervenes as a concern troll when it's too late

I understand that the police are investigating this and if the person who impregnated her is a man with capacity then he’s, he is a rapist and he should be imprisoned. It may be that he is another vulnerable adult who lacks the capacity to make decisions and consent, in which case it is a more nuanced situation. Either way, this woman’s carers have very badly let her down and that was likely a factor in the court determining whether this woman should continue her pregnancy.

Your suggestion that the state is a ‘concern troll’ is manifestly ridiculous.

@loafofsellotape

"Then you suspect incorrectly as for some women carrying to term and giving birth can be dangerous physically and mentally."

Not necessarily. None of us can say for sure which is the less traumatic option for the woman. Not even the judge knows - they can only make a guess based on the information, and judges are not infallible.

It's very common for children to be removed at birth. It's almost unheard of that those children would be forcibly aborted beforehand to prevent that occurrence. So we really can't go there as that being a justification.

carla1983 that is why I said some women.

Would the abortion not be just as traumatic as giving birth ? I don't think there is an easy answer here at all as a pp a long term contraception would have been better just in case .

Not all adults with LD's need supervising 24 hours a day and plenty have romantic relationships, this could well happen again despite the best efforts of those closest to her, would it be acceptable to put her through this twice?

We are not discussing all adults with LD’s, we are discussing this specific woman, and she should never be in a position to have sex because she lacks the capacity to consent. Again, not true of all adults with LD’s, but true of her, and it is the responsibility of her carers to protect her.

It sets a worrying precedent that it's ok to force abortions on people that do not consent, because they have LD's.

That is not the precedent. This is not about all adults with LDs. This ruling is specific to this woman, and to her specific circumstances.

They will likely induce the labour/dilation after stopping the heartbeat and they would be able to either use an epidural or other medication/sedation to help with her pain.

I have actually been through both a late stage termination & delivery and childbirth vaginal delivery with no epidural or sedation and childbirth is far more painful and intense, removing the term baby from someone is also very different to discretely taking away a foetus that is no longer viable. I know people do not want to think or hear about this in some respects as it seems distasteful, vulgar and horribly immoral to terminate in this way and I really wondered whether to post it at all. I will probably regret it.
The 2 experiences are not quite the same - in my own opinion

"They will likely induce the labour/dilation after stopping the heartbeat and they would be able to either use an epidural or other medication/sedation to help with her pain. "

How is this going to be more traumatic than a full term birth, e.g. via caesarian section? Especially when she is being forced to do it?

I think the contractions must be bad either way, but there surely can't be any doubt that removing a less than 1 lb fetus is easier than a 9lb baby.

I don't know where the pro life and anti abortion talk is coming from.

If I were pro life I would have no problem saying so here on a forum of strangers where I have nothing to prove.

I support abortion completely in all cases where the mother has chosen it.

What I don't support is forcing that decision on somebody who doesn't.

People don't have to agree with me and I don't mind that they don't.

Yes giving birth has risks but so do late term terminations.

She is already over half way through the pregnancy, a termination now is not going to be as simple a procedure as it would at, say, 8 weeks. The woman is going to be in considerable pain after an operatiom whether she has an elective CS to birth the baby or has a surgical termination now to end the pregnancy so terminating isn't protecting her.

This is shocking. Searched a bit on the web - her mother has stepped forward and wants to take care of the baby? This should be enough reason to let otherwise healty pregnancy to develop. I think there is a whole army of kids raised by granparents behind the scenes.

I agree that labour of a full term baby is more painful than labour of a mid term baby. But that's excluding the element of force.

I doubt many of us would ever get over a pregnancy being ended for us without our consent.

If you want the honest answer

A c-section is major surgery, why would you do that? That is unusual unless the mothers life is at immediate risk. Lots of stitches and 6 week recovery

With a late stage termination you experience labour pains - but these can be managed with epidural or other drugs not usually used during labour, you also do not have to push a large babies head, as the head is small. You are less likely to have any birth trauma like tears. You will probably go home the next day and it does not feel the same as it does post term birth physically

I am obviously talking about the physical side not the emotional one