To think you can't physically force somebody to have a late term abortion?

[Cringemum]

Just that really.

I was following the thread on the feminist board about the 22yo woman with LD's, who is 22 weeks pregnant, and a judge has ordered the pregnancy be terminated against her wishes.

The thread reached the maximum amount of comments before anybody was able to shed any light on my question.

I can't fathom how she can be physically forced to go through the procedure if she refuses to comply.

Could anybody shed any light on how exactly something like this could be enforced short of physically dragging her to the hospital and restraining her.

Horrible, horrible case by all accounts and my POV is that the judge has made the wrong decision - for the mother - I'm strictly pro choice in all situations but this doesn't sit right with me at all.

Many on the previous thread strongly disagree as is their prerogative but I don't understand how she can be made to go through with a termination?

Anybody?

I'm shocked that so few people think it's barbaric to physically restrain and sedate a vulnerable woman with learning disabilities and force her to undergo a late term termination.

That’s not what people are saying. They’re saying it is more barbaric for her to go through childbirth, a process she can’t possibly understand, only to have the baby removed and put up for adoption. There are no good options here, but this has been deemed the most harmful.

It is also said that she has a mood disorder, let's say hypothetically that the mood disorder is depression - what if being forced to undergo a termination against her will pushes her over the edge and she harms herself? Not impossible in these circumstances.

The mood disorder is not the reason this decision has been made, and presenting hypotheticals as alternative scenarios is a straw man argument.

I'm shocked that so few people think it's barbaric to physically restrain and sedate a vulnerable woman with learning disabilities and force her to undergo a late term termination.

I'm shocked that anyone posting on the issue things their decision should be worth listening to more than the one taken by a judge who has made their decision in the presence of all the facts.

But we don't know that she will be physically restrained or sedated. If everyone around her behaves professionally with compassion and respect then there's no reason why she won't calmly walk in there herself and have the general anaesthetic and surgery just like you or I.

Why are you sensationalising it without knowing anything about the situation other than news reporting of the court decision?

What do you think they would have to do to her if she went to term and had to deliver the baby?

They would have to forcibly restrain her then too, either to put her under GA for a c-section or, to allow her to deliver naturally.

In what way would that be better for her? It has been deemed she could not ever be left with a baby in her own care, and given her own mother’s gross failure to care for her, there is no reason to believe she could look after a disabled adult and a newborn even close to adequately.

This decision will not have been made lightly and it will have been made with the best interests of the young woman as paramount.

The woman has a mental age of 6-9 years old and therefore does not have capacity to consent to intercourse, let alone be able to consent to a pregnancy. The trauma alone of going through childbirth is enough to 'force' this on her. She is incapable of making a decision. The court had to make it for her in her best interests.

I'm aware that her mood disorder isn't the reason for the ruling, but a forced late term abortion is bound to have a huge physcological impact on anybody let alone somebody is already emotionally unstable.

This decision may well push her over the edge.

Yes it is stated that she has extremely limited understanding but it's also suggested that her understanding is being understated.

Of course you can, it happens when somebody refuses consent when they don't have the ability to make the decision themselves. It happened to me with my emergency c-section and I've seen it happen to others. I don't know how often it happens, hopefully not that often as it's so much better for everyone involved if the person can make the right decision themselves. Either way there is no easy answer and it will be incredibly difficult for this lady.

And what of the "father"? What sort of a man impregnates a person with mental capacity of a child? Possibly a peer who also has a mental capacity of a child?

Why has he mother grossly failed her?

Plenty of adults with LD's have enough independence and freedom to go out and socialise away from their parents and care givers.

It's not unlikely that the father himself is a young adult with LD's.

It's a hard subject to touch upon. I do agree with @Cringemum and sadly we will never get the whole story from either side. No one knows who got this poor lady pregnant how do we know it wasn't another person with LD? The police are investigating it but no one knows.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion though and you can't bash someone else for having a different opinion.

Her mother, a trained midwife has had a part to play in this becoming the late term abortion it is going to be.

As I have stated previously - this case would have not have been in the hands of the courts for months on end.

Yes, lots of adults with learning difficulties do have a degree of independence. What degree of independence do you think a woman with a mental age of 6-9 years, has?

OP what do you think the alternative should be?

Unfortunately I think this is one of those cases where the general public are not going to have any knowledge about this. Surely we just have to trust that the experts know enough about this situation to make the right decision?

She has the mental capacity of a 6-9yo, which means she needs the supervision of a 6-9yo. This isn't limiting her freedom, it's about keeping her safe. People with learning disabilities form an exceptionally diverse group. Some will be capable of living independently and making their own decisions. Some will not.
OP you are just demonstrating your lack of understanding. Which is ok, you don't need to understand. But you do need to accept that the judge and those working with the girl do understand, and are doing this in her best interest.

This decision may well push her over the edge.

So might the decision to let the pregnancy continue. As it is, though, she had been assessed by a team of medical professionals who have advised that they consider a termination to be the route of least harm.

You know I'm with you on this, OP. I was particularly worried about how they will go about coercing her into the procedure.

It's going to mean an overnight stay in hospital and major surgery, at best. It would be extremely frightening.

@PouncerDarling and childbirth? This is someone without the capacity to understand what it means to give birth. How will childbirth or a "forced" c-section be any less traumatic?

We don't know that her mother knew at an early stage though, so I don't know why she is being demonized.

For all we know the young woman was perfectly able to take care of her own menstrual cycle.

Some women continue to have periods throughout pregnancy thus don't find out until much later on.

Some women go through an entire pregnancy not knowing they are pregnant, so how could anybody else in that particular scenario?

Some women are overweight and so wouldn't show until later on.

I'm short with a small build and didn't have a visible bump until I was over 20 weeks.

We don't know that her mother has tried to conceal the pregnancy or found out about it at an early stage.

I don’t think a D&C is major surgery tbh.

She's too late on for a D&C.

You know I'm with you on this, OP. I was particularly worried about how they will go about coercing her into the procedure.

We don't know what will happen and neither should we this is someone's personal life why should we know?

It's going to mean an overnight stay in hospital and major surgery, at best. It would be extremely frightening.

Yeah because giving birth would be a much less frightening and traumatic experience. As others have said there was no good end result for this case the judge has ruled in what will be in the women's best interests.

You are being deliberately obtuse. I don’t for a second think your “naïveté” is genuine. This is a pro-life stance through and through.

She could possibly have a D&E, which is much more invasive, but that's not generally recommended after twenty weeks. The most likely option is the heart to be stopped with an injection through the stomach into the uterus, followed by labour being induced by drugs.

You know I'm with you on this, OP. I was particularly worried about how they will go about coercing her into the procedure

If we were talking about getting her tonsils removed under a GA would people be having the same emotional response?

We don't know how this woman feels about her pregnancy, or if she has any emotional connection or understanding of it at all. For her this surgery may be no more traumatic than her six monthly check up at the dentists.

Only the people involved in her care know the full situation, we have to trust that they are making this decision in her best interests and will carry it out in the most compassionate and caring way they can.

BPAS says D&C is performed until 24 weeks www.bpas.org/abortion-care/abortion-treatments/surgical-abortion/dilatation-and-evacuation/