I've had an altercation at the school gate this morning and I'm shaken up!

[NotStrongYet]

I was on my way into school early. It's school photos day so those with siblings could arrive early for a sibling shoot. I parked up and got the kids out of the car and all of a sudden I heard the most awful shouting. It was a Mum, screaming aggressively at her kid. The daughter (maybe aged 7) had run away up the street next to the school. The mum left her little boy (aged 2 i would guess) on a grass verge and ran after her daughter. I couldn't actually see what was happening at this point but I could hear the mum screaming and the daughter crying. They then followed us up the path to school. The Mum was shouting "do you know what happens to kids like you that run off? People take them and kill them!!!" I was a few feet ahead with my 5 and 3 year old who were looking more and more worried by the stuff the lady was screaming. I carried on walking. The daughter then said "mum I don't want to go to school". The mum grabbed her by the arm and yanked her forward, before sliding her arm in between her daughters back and her school bag and dragging her along the full length of the playground by the bag. Her poor daughters legs were being dragged along the concrete. I said to the mum "I'm sorry but what your doing is really upsetting me". She said "this is a daily occurrence and the school know about it". She was almost hit by a car round there and every day she says she doesn't want to go to school" I said "I understand that, but what you're doing is wrong". She preceded to drag the child along the ground whilst shouting at her. I have told my daughters teacher and I've been assured this is going to be followed up. I'm shaking and not sure if I've done the right thing. It feels like I have. No child deserves to be treated like that, regardless of the circumstances.

The OP reacted in the moment. It is so easy to say what you all feel she should have said after reading and giving the matter careful consideration. Yes, the mother may have been at the end of her tether but that does not mean it is acceptable to treat her daughter as she did.

OP you were perfectly correct to say what you did.

A friend of mine left child protection social work because she said she could tell her managers that a particular child could quite literally be murdered that very night, and she would be ignored and nothing would be done about it.

Social services cannot cope, she will be at the very very bottom of a huge caseload.

We all need to speak up about this sort of thing. Loudly.

And I've had to do pushing and pulling never in a way that my child has got hurt but it may make those who don't know us feel uncomfortable. With a child too big to pick up and carry and in imminent danger or at risk of hurting someone, sometimes there is no choice.
There is virtually no support/ training available in having to physically manage an older child even when everyone who works with the child has it.

Op, I think you said the right thing, and hopefully the mum will get the support she needs from the school/ss.

There is never a reason to stand by and do nothing when something seems wrong to you, you would feel awful is something worse happened in the future and you had kept quiet.

I’ve been at the end of my tether. I’ve been deep in depression and struggled to care about anything while my three kids, who are blissfully unaware, drove me even further towards a breakdown.

I have NEVER dragged my children.
I have NEVER screamed at them in public.
I have NEVER left them unattended.
I have NEVER pushed, pulled or otherwise forced them into their backpack or coat or whatever it is they’re refuse to wear/carry.

This may well be a mother at the end of her tether but it IS abusive behaviour. Reporting it may get both her and her children any help they all need.

Report it and move on. If it's a mum at the end of her tether this should trigger some support to be put into place. If it's a child at risk this should ensure she is on the radar. That really should be the end of your involvement.

Please try not to judge too much. I'm fairly sure an outsider might view me in this light. I have marched my 7yo ds into school during a meltdown at least once. He is currently being assessed for additional needs as his behaviour is not typical. I was just as upset as he was but didn't know how to handle it.

Definitely report, and the other incident, as clearly the mother isn't coping.

I would and have offered help in this situation as it is incredibly isolating and stressful if (if of course this is the case) the child has behavioral problems.

However, as goose goosey points out one needs to make a judgement whether this could make things worse.

I would have found your response (and I have a challenging child with behavioral issues) unwelcome and unhelpful.

Don't think OP did anything wrong by saying it upset her. It would've gone down much worse if OP had straight out accused the woman of abuse! I think you did the right thing.

This thread has certainly evolved over 4 pages, Christ almighty!
So we've gone from the child being pushed/guided down the playground to her being dragged with scrapes all up her shins...the 7 year old being hit by a car whilst running away, leaving the 2 year old totally alone on the verge.... laughable really.
It is very hard work having a child who creates all kinds of Mary hell when they get to the school gates, I think at some point most of us have been there to some degree, and it can make even the most patient parent temporarily lose their composure. My ds went through this for about 6 months, there appeared no reason other than he wanted to spend the day with me. I've done the "guiding", I've had to grab his arm as he ran out the bottom gate straight for the road and I've even picked him up and carried him to class with his teacher taking him from me at the door. I past caring what it looked like to other people and what they didn't see was the daily breakdown when I got back in the car, they didn't hear the phone call to my DP because I just needed someone to listen to me.
Thankfully the school were fully on board and would phone me at the point he was ok... usually about 30 seconds after I'd left...it was just getting him in that became a massive issue.
I'm not saying this mum acted in a way I agree with but what I am saying is that I'm not going to judge her or call her a child abuser based on the very little and one sided piece of the story we have been given.
Equally, you had a genuine concern so your course of action was appropriate but maybe think about what you're going to say before you speak to avoid inflaming the situation.

well hurrah for you Lavende.

I agree with Stucknoue. It maybe she has depression and is holding on for dear life. Literally. You have no idea what's going on in the background. Life is hard. Judge away though. Did it cross your mind to help, pick up the two year old and offer a smile.

I think we all have our breaking point and when that line is crossed we do things that ordinarily we would never dream of and if you don't understand that then you have never hit rock bottom. That said I do think how she behaved was wrong but my above points stand.

Look, notifying the teacher is good, I would have done the same. What you said however was wrong but I you know that so no need to dwell however, you should have helped not for the mothers sake but for the child’s sake. When her daughter ran off I imagined that scared her given what she said about another time she ran, I would have gone to the two year old to make sure he was okay. I would have tried to help in some way and would have said what she is doing is wrong but not because of my comfort, but rather because the child is being hurt deliberately and that is not on.

FGS. You can't do right on here. I've seen several threads where an OP witnesses a possibly abusive situation at a play ground or similar and everyone piles on them for saying nothing at the time. This OP says something and folk are still criticising her for getting the words wrong, or not doing exactly what they claim they would have done.

OP, I think you did and said the right things. Saying anything is better than doing nothing in my opinion. Distressing all round though.

I get why you said something initially but to then carry on after she has told you it’s an ongoing issue and that school are aware and basically admitted she is struggling is basically just digging the knife in further. Couldn’t you have said at that point “is there anything I can do to help?”

As a parent thats had to manhandle a child into school, and thats also had to leave my much younger child and run after an older one who's bolted (ASD) I can sympathise with the mum.. to a point.

Its VERY easy in that moment to let anger and temper get the better of you.. you're stressed, angry, terrified, and it can all bubble to the surface in behaving inappropriately and aggressively.

Absolutely what she did in choosing to drag her child was absolutely wrong, 100%, but can we not call her a child abuser.. unless you've been there, unless you've had to deal with that, you have absolutely no fucking idea what its like.

She obviously needs help and support, not judgement and name calling.

OP you did the right thing.. if you see it again, please offer help, in that moment, having someone to help can make a world of difference.

You can bet that mom was later crying her eyes out in shame.

I told my neighbour when I got home, she told me she has also witnessed this mum throw her child face first into a metal gate. She too reported it the leisure centre staff where it happened but she doesn't know if it was followed up.

I understand that you were upset by what you saw (and you absolutely did the right thing by reporting it to school btw!) but I don't think gossiping about it to your neighbour is helpful, especially as she seems to know the woman involved. I'm surprised that if your neighbour really did witness this woman throw the child face first into a metal gate all she did was tell someone who works at the leisure centre. That's one hell of an under-reaction. If I saw someone pick up a small child and throw them into a metal gate I'd be calling the police, that's a significant assault and unless your neighbour was exaggerating the child will almost certainly have sustained some level of injury, superficial bruising at the very least.

Regarding the incident you reported, the school will have to report to CS as you say her shins were dragged across the concrete, which means she will have arrived in school with visible injuries. In my experience (I work in a school in a safeguarding role) once the school have called the MASH (or the child's allocated social worker if it's an open case) someone will want to come into school that day to see the injuries while they are fresh and talk to the child.

‘What you’re doing is upsetting me’...

Why is that her problem?

Hi OP,
I think what you did and said was fine. It was more likely to de-escalate the situation than you telling her that her behaviour was disgraceful/not allowed or whatever when she would be more likely to tell you to F off.

You didn't ask to witness what you did but if you refer to the school (pref in writing to ensure it is followed up rather than just the teacher you mentioned it to) or to social services direct if that is your preference then I think you will be doing your moral duty in a case that you have no wish to be involved in.

If the mum needs help and support then the school and social services are best placed to investigate/provide. If you do nothing (assuming that this is as posters say just a mum at the end of her tether one morning) you could be right or you could be wrong but could you live with the possibility that you are wrong and that those children are physically abused?

We are lucky to have a system for reporting concerns that someone else then takes over responsibility for (very imperfect as it is) so I urge you to use it.

If you refer to the school you have a right to be told that they are referring it on/offering support as you should be able to chase up to ensure it has not been forgotten but this might not always happen as people have privacy concerns so if you feel strongly that it should be reported to social servicesc(I think it should) then do both referrals (school and SS yourself). Some mum's of children with additional needs say they get no help/respite because in a strained system their family is not "at breaking point" perhaps this family is at breaking point and your referral will help them get the help they need.

I love the idea that if you'd said 'would you like some help?' then the woman would have responded really well to this interference! All interference where you feel judged and shamed and emotions are running high is unwanted and intrusive. But when a child is being hurt, you feel obliged in some way to step in, even if you don't say the right thing and can't do much.

Can't believe everyone is mocking you or the scale of what went on- I think you did the right thing. All these reviews of terrible deaths, people say 'but why didn't anyone report?' The sad thing is often people do report but there aren't enough resources to deal with it or the parents disguise what they are up to. But, you can't stop reporting on that basis can you?

Goldmandra I got told the same by my daughters school. I rang them explaining the situation, my daughter said she wanted a skirt for school so I didn’t wash her trousers then in the morning she had a meltdown because she didn’t want the skirt anyway, school said to me I need to get her into school and I explained the only way to do that would be to hold her down and force the skirt into her and I am not willing to do that, she told me to use my authority to get her in.. I just said look I can get her in in a pair of jogging bottoms and I’ll have her trousers washed for the next day. To concerned with attendance it felt like.

I understand that what you say in the heat of the moment isn't always what you would say if you could plan it, but I agree with a pp in saying you have made this all about you - even your thread title is a bit me me me.
.What this lady did was 100 percent wrong and she needs help from the sounds of it if she is struggling to manage her daughter's behaviour, but you have shown no concern for the girl or her brother, instead focusing on how this affected you.

FFS, get off OP's back about her response. She was in the middle of a very upsetting situation, you're all talking with all the luxury of hindsight and, y'know, not actually being there.

I agree that this mother was probably at the end of her tether and, I suspect, should have been getting more support from the school and others long ago. Parents of children who can't cope in school are in an awful position - on the one hand they have a highly distressed child who needs support, on the other they tend to have schools and social services taking a judgmental attitude, threatening prosecution and saying it's all their fault. Far too often, schools refuse to help with the EHC application this child almost certainly needs because it's so easy to blame the parents instead. On top of all that, this mother has 2 year old as well. It's understandable that she was incredibly stressed, and probably frightened by the risks her daughter was taking.

None of that means that the daughter should be dragged along the concrete or have her face shoved into railings, obviously. But it's too easy to condemn when you're not in her situation.

@Lavende, have you ever been told that you have to manhandle your distressed child into school every day, against your better judgement, with your instincts screaming at you that you're doing the wrong thing, under threat of prosecution?

Have you ever had to choose between holding onto the younger calmer child to keep him safe or catching the older child in meltdown who is about to disappear altogether or run into a road?

Have you been threatened by a roomful of professionals with having your children removed because you are trying to tell people how distressed they are at home?

Have you had to physically stop your child removing their school uniform every day as you are ready to leave as their last-ditch attempt to stay where they feel safe?

Have you had to sit with a shaking, sobbing child at 2.00am night after night while they plead with you not to make them go to school again?

Until you have walked in the shoes of the parent of a school refuser (I hate that term), you don't know what you would do. The parents are often abused and intimidated by the professionals who are meant to be supporting their child. Until I experienced it myself, I would never have believed it could happen.

It is a horrific position to be in. It nearly destroyed me and it caused me to make decisions and do things to my children that I now regret.

You did the right thing.

You did the right thing telling the school and the neighbour needs to tell the school about the leisure centre incident too