I've had an altercation at the school gate this morning and I'm shaken up!

[NotStrongYet]

I was on my way into school early. It's school photos day so those with siblings could arrive early for a sibling shoot. I parked up and got the kids out of the car and all of a sudden I heard the most awful shouting. It was a Mum, screaming aggressively at her kid. The daughter (maybe aged 7) had run away up the street next to the school. The mum left her little boy (aged 2 i would guess) on a grass verge and ran after her daughter. I couldn't actually see what was happening at this point but I could hear the mum screaming and the daughter crying. They then followed us up the path to school. The Mum was shouting "do you know what happens to kids like you that run off? People take them and kill them!!!" I was a few feet ahead with my 5 and 3 year old who were looking more and more worried by the stuff the lady was screaming. I carried on walking. The daughter then said "mum I don't want to go to school". The mum grabbed her by the arm and yanked her forward, before sliding her arm in between her daughters back and her school bag and dragging her along the full length of the playground by the bag. Her poor daughters legs were being dragged along the concrete. I said to the mum "I'm sorry but what your doing is really upsetting me". She said "this is a daily occurrence and the school know about it". She was almost hit by a car round there and every day she says she doesn't want to go to school" I said "I understand that, but what you're doing is wrong". She preceded to drag the child along the ground whilst shouting at her. I have told my daughters teacher and I've been assured this is going to be followed up. I'm shaking and not sure if I've done the right thing. It feels like I have. No child deserves to be treated like that, regardless of the circumstances.

Yeah my DS is completely inconsistent too. Much of the time there is no trigger for his rages and meltdowns . We work so hard trying to help him recognise when he is starting to feel stressed but I don’t know if he knows himself. He can be totally fine one minute and punching me in the face the next.

But this is just me wanting to challenge an incorrect assumption rather than asserting that definately what you saw was a mother coping (badly) with a child with complex challenging needs.

You did the right thing in reporting it OP, but leave it at that. The school will deal with it, and from what the mum said they may already be. A report to social services wouldn’t hurt either. If it’s a genuinely struggling family with a child with challenging behaviour then it’ll add to the case for helping them. If it is a case of child cruelty and abuse, then it’ll add to concerns and hopefully prompt intervention and support. There’s no way of you knowing what is happening for this child and mother from your small glimpses into this family’s lives . And definately no way of knowing for us folk on the internet speculating wildly.

CorBlimeyGovenor Oh gosh that sounds awful. As an adult I would be terrified so I can imagine how scared a child must be. Poor kid.

StarB3 if an adult was running towards a road and could get hit by a car then I’m sure people would grab or drag them from the situation. I think when someone’s life is in danger then some for of restraint etc is okay, I mean when adults are trying to harm themselves other adults strap them down in beds, is it much different than dragging a child to school because you only have one hand free to restrain them? The gate incident though does sound more abusive than just struggling. Only way I can see it not being is if she tried to grab her and fell and it looked like she pushed her. Then again, ockam’s razor.

So Lizzie havent you just confirmed that your dc can control themselves absolutely then?

I dont have experience of ASN(?) but isnt the issue that they cant choose/control (i.e. run into danger), but youre saying yours can?

I can understand how you felt but it really does sound like the mum is at breaking point, possibly very depressed. Unless you have had a child with behavioural issues it is difficult to understand the levels of stress and anxiety this can cause. And compounded with existing depression... I’ve been there. It’s easy to judge someone based on a brief snapshot of their day. Based on how you have described the daughter, it is likely that she has bigger issues. That said, the mum needs help (practical, to learn how to deal with her daughter’s behaviour, mental to support her) so you were right to report it to the school. If you see something similar happening again, maybe offer her some help with the younger sibling? Sometimes a little act of kindness can make the world of difference.

It's horrible to see and the mum needs some help probably, but my brother is like this he's 4 he sees no danger to run in front of a bus, take his clothes off in the street. He will randomly just have a meltdown and kick cars or try pull the wing mirrors off I think he's Autistic but my parents won't hear it. But it's very hard and it causes so many rows in the street I don't go out with them anymore as it's distressing for everyone around. I don't think you can compare a naughty kid to a child with possible sen as the techniques to discipline are different but I don't know this that's just from what I've tried to read up on.

I think dc are routinely forced,and its wrong. There are many cases of genuine distress being forced this way, and its causing harm all round.

truthontrial.

Many of the neurological differences in children with ASN have a hallmark of inconsistency.

Maddening to those with no experience of ASN, and illogical for sure. But a very common and well known fact.

@TruthOnTrial

No, it's not as simple as her being able to control it. It's more the case that she holds it all in until she gets to boiling point. She doesn't exhibit her behaviour at school; she's withdrawn and quiet, then when she gets home (sometimes on the way), she'll explode.

It can be anything that sets her off, but mostly it's a perceived injustice, like her DSis gets more time on the TV/iPad than she does (even if it isn't true).

It's common with adopted children, as my DDs are. Though she also appears to be mildly autistic, with her very literal view of the world; she gets desperately upset if something she thinks is going to happen doesn't happen when she expects it to. She also struggles to relate to her schoolmates socially.

and the fact that the OP can assert the child in question can "skip merrily into school" merrily as evidence to support her fears of child abuse, makes her lack of experience and knowledge of challenging behaviour is ASN children obvious to those of us with ASN children.

Again, I'm not asserting that what the OP witnessed was definitely a case of a mother coping (badly) with an ASN's child's challenging behaviour. Noone could know that on such small glimpse into the child/mother's lives (and definitely not internet speculators) what was happening. And the OP was absolutely right to report it.

DD1 also has attachment issues, as a result of being adopted, which can also explain her meltdowns. It's very common with adopted children.

My point was her absolute consistency wrt your dh, and not ever losing control in front of him.

This would say that its a temporary developmental issue, that with solid support and guidance can be grown through.

Is this the same as austism? There are a lot of different issues under discussion here. I certainly wasnt saying that a dc having a loss of control cant also be a very quiet and withdrawn dc also.

These are all surface behaviours, there's no discussion around the underlying issues,like the lack of depth to the authorities decisions on fines and forcing school attendence when this can and does cause further harm.

ASD definitely would be the first thing to spring to my mind, it takes up to 2 hours to get DD out to school, she's nearly 11 and likes her teacher.
When she was 7 it was much much worse, she was a defiant school refuser who would run into a busy road to avoid going. I often chased her with DS in a sling or buggy.
Personally I would have offered to help when it kicked off.

it didn't appear that the daughter was really misbehaving at all. She just simply said "I don't want to go to school" and then her mum lost it
This was after she ran out into the road, not misbehaving at all hmm, running for her life into a road. Which is It?
Again I ask why didn't you go to the 2 year old alone on the grass verge?

If you don’t know the mother’s name and neither does your neighbour, how do you know you are talking about the same person...?

This is not a trial. What an aggressive response you've had OP.

Shame so many parents think this is acceptable. It's really really not.
Hope you're ok, I hate witnessing children being abused, it stays with you long after the event. Poor kid.

Shame so many parents think this is acceptable. It's really really not
Not one poster has said it is acceptable to abuse a child.
You're right OP is not on trial but posters ask questions for clarity when things don't add up.
In AIBU section it is to be expected if you start a thread.

@TruthOnTrial

DD2 does lose it in front of my DH. On one occasion, she was angry with him and lashed out at me instead! So he witnesses it but he doesn't experience it. She also throws whatever is to hand. She recently threw a packet of spaghetti across the floor and it hit DD2 on the nose.

She is young for her age emotionally. She recently had therapy through Post Adoption Support and they assessed her as being age 3 emotionally. We're in the process of having her assessed for an EHCP with the school's support (she's 2 years behind academically) and requesting a referral to CAMHS.

No one has said it’s acceptable. What people have pointed out is that the situation may be a lot more complex than it seems and that trying to intervene as she did probably won’t help and risks making things worse. Especially when she was at the school so could do as she did and let the school know and they can deal with it appropriately.

I am sure people have mentioned to school in the past me getting ds into school because in the past he has fought it big style and that’s fine school know the situation and where working on it with me. When people intervened with “helpful” comments though it could add an extra 20 minutes to the time taken to get in through the door!

Sorry, that should have read DD1, not DD2.

I do hear what you're saying, which is why we've pushed for her to be assessed so that we can access the support that she needs.

YWNBU to intervene but saying it was upsetting you was a bit crap.

It's not acceptable for someone to physically hurt a child to get them into school.

"This is not a trial. What an aggressive response you've had OP."

People exaggerate. People make stuff up. People are wary of new posters with extreme stories.

Yes Lizzie and i really hope she, and you, get that help really soon.

Perhaps it needs your dh to set boundaries and involve himself, if she doesn't kick off around him?

I mean, she might learn a lot from having a man assert healthy boundaries and step up when theres problems.

Dd used to go for me more than DH, and was more attached to me and more distressed when separated from me (ie when I'm in another room). Now she attacks us equally.

She also throws things and has smashed a window at home and broken the TV.

Sometimes when in public she has a very different sort of meltdown whet she goes very still and quiet, and states angrily at me, refuses to move and pinches me instead. It's because she's in public and is trying to hold it together.

Sometimes me dd skips into school. Not often, but some days. She also completely transforms once in the school grounds. It's like jekyl and Hyde. All of a sudden she transforms into this different child. She puts her mask back on. Masking is what causes most of thedistress, because she masks all day at school.