To ask why two London boroughs send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined?

[nickymanchester]

I was reading an article in The Guardian today which claimed that more children from the London boroughs of Richmond and Barnet go to Oxbridge than all of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined.

For context, the population of Richmond and Barnet combined is about 540k (Barnet actually has quite a lot of people living there) according to the ONS - so about the same population as Sheffield.

David Lammy says England is failing those who don't go to university

This is the quote:-

He noted that university access data reveals that geography is as much of a fault line as class or race. “Two London boroughs, Richmond and Barnet, send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined,” he said.

So, is it just down to all the private schools in London? Or is there something else affecting these figures as well?

I haven’t taken it upon myself to decide anything. You clearly don’t anything about life beyond your own bubble and you think it’s just a case of people not bothering to apply themselves which makes them fail.

Also the world is changing. The jobs our DC will be doing in the future haven’t even been conceived of yet. It won’t matter so much that x% of lawyers are Oxbridge or whatever as the profession becomes increasingly online and automated. Same with surgeons and many other of the “traditional professions”. I think the successful people of the future will be the ones who can best adapt and keep an open mind in a rapidly-changing, globalised world. Old money and “old boys networks” will continue to fade into insignificance against such societal shifts.

how - I can’t argue with you any more about this but I can assure you that your perspective is just that - no more no less than anyone else’s - just as the perspective of someone from Albania will be what it is. No more valid than someone from Bolton, but no less either. A slightly different prism, as you say, which will shift according to how life pans out. The important thing is to never presume and put people into a box based on how they present in their current circumstances. Life doesn’t work like that.

Well said Catloons. I would add that, hopefully, good Universities will also adapt to societal change and the value of being educated at them will remain.

Quite simply, money, and well educated parents!

Have you never heard of the English class system Catloons? It’s been putting people into boxes, as you put it for generations. I would like nothing more than for that to change.

I went to Oxford from a state school in the Midlands. Location was a big part of it - being able to get home in under an hour. If I'd lived in the north I'd probably have applied to Durham

Education has always been one of the main methods for some to escape their box. The universities are among the 'good guys' in this effort!

how - You just keep coming back with the same fixed thinking and because I don’t see everything purely through the lens of the British class system or the “north-south divide”, you conclude I don’t understand. But as I say, you obviously have a very bright son. He already has an advantage in this respect. Plus he has an advantage that he is starting life in a developed economy, imperfect though that may be. Whichever uni he goes to, he will meet people from all walks of life and his perspectives will likely shift as a result. When he goes into the workplace, he’ll likely be up against candidates from all across the world. Some “toff” from Eton / Oxbridge will be the least of his worries tbh. Nobody will give a hoot that he’s from northern England and went to x secondary school when he’s competing with the Chinese, Indians or Koreans.

thetis can you explain why getting home in an hour was so important to you? Did you go home during term time?

Catloons believe me when I say I am equally frustrated with your fixed viewpoint.

As for competing with Indians, Koreans and Chinese, i doubt he would be in the same field as them to be honest. He wants to go into something quite niche and there isn’t the culture from these places to push their kids into that field.

So you know all that there is to know about Korean, Chinese and Indian culture do you howwudufeel?

No but I know they wouldn’t be interested in what he wants to do

You do realise that there are literally billions of them?

Thanks for enlightening me on the the population of south east Asia. The field DS wants to go into is quite specific to the uk and not brilliantly paid. It isn’t one of those jobs which has global competition.

Nobody will give a hoot that he’s from northern England and went to x secondary school when he’s competing with the Chinese, Indians or Koreans. Do you know how many pseudo ‘English public schools’ there are in Asia? And how hard rich Asian people push their kids to achieve Oxbridge or Ivy League? My DH went to Oxbridge and when he worked in Asia colleagues were always asking him which school to choose for their kids. They didn’t know he’d been to a comp. They just assumed he was from ‘the upper echelons’ that they all wanted to be a part of. It shouldn’t matter but it still does I’m afraid.

how - you are applying your own agenda. At no point have I said that “people not applying themselves is the reason they fail.” What are you in about? These are entirely your words, not mine.

I know about lack of opportunity and inequality. There is a world outside Britain you know and wider perspectives that you can bring to bear as a result. There is global inequality - between Northern and Southern Europe; Eastern and Western Europe; the developed v the developing world. I feel like I’m stating the obvious here. How ridiculous to tell someone that they are narrow-minded because the course of their life has been different to yours. I find this nonsense.

I was about to say that I wish your son all the best. He is bright, seems to know what he wants to do and has an interested parent - all this is vital. But please don’t pass on all this “us and them” attitude to him. As I say, if your grandchildren end up in private schools (which they may well do) will you dismiss them as “in a bubble?” Will your son be a different person then? You might find your perspective shifts? Anyway, that’s all I’ve got to say. You’ll think what you want to think regardless.

Tell you what, howwudufeel let’s park the whole discussion around your son. More importantly, have we made any progress with arranging for his friend to visit Oxford by bus/stay in a college/ with a host family etc etc? You’ve had a lot of good and practical suggestions on here?

Why would I pass on a them and us attitude to my dc? I hate the divisions of rich and poor, working and middle class in the UK and I want to be part of ending it. Believe it or not most people want their dc to do well and exceed their achievements.
I think you can’t grasp the fact that talking about these problems and wanting to shine a light on them doesn’t mean wanting these problems to continue. In fact it’s quite the opposite.

Maintaining an open mind might help, even in the face of the stats.

Maintain an open mind about what? I have a perfectly open mind. However I know that the research exists which proves I am right to be worried.

I used to have Oxford as a customer and a huge portion of their students are Chinese, they pay higher fees and your son will be in competition with them for student places.

Eggshell?I am pretty sure that all Universities have to keep open a set percentage of places for students who only pay U.K. tuition fees. Otherwise there would be nothing to stop them filling up completely with foreign students who pay higher fees. So the Chinese students are competing in a different pool. Someone who knows more about university admissions will no doubt clarify further.

Are you taking to me Eggshells If so I doubt very much there will be huge competition from Chinese students given what he wants to do as a job.