To ask why two London boroughs send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined?

[nickymanchester]

I was reading an article in The Guardian today which claimed that more children from the London boroughs of Richmond and Barnet go to Oxbridge than all of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined.

For context, the population of Richmond and Barnet combined is about 540k (Barnet actually has quite a lot of people living there) according to the ONS - so about the same population as Sheffield.

David Lammy says England is failing those who don't go to university

This is the quote:-

He noted that university access data reveals that geography is as much of a fault line as class or race. “Two London boroughs, Richmond and Barnet, send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined,” he said.

So, is it just down to all the private schools in London? Or is there something else affecting these figures as well?

Barnet has some of the most competitive grammars in England. More difficult to get places in than some of the more affluent private schools. Highly competitive, and they get the top of the top (who doesn't want to save £30,000 a year in fees by employing some tutors for a few years) Parents prepare their children for entry from a very early age, and their and the schools aim is an Oxbridge.

I suspect Richmond the same, plus a few high achieving private schools as well.

Maybe it is because people in those areas are closed off to the idea that there are excellent universities elsewhere in the UK and refuse to step outside their comfort zone.

This ^

I think Apollo makes a really good point looking at it from the opposite side.

I do think that there are people from those affluent areas in the south who would not consider a northern university (unless it’s Durham or St Andrews), not least because it moves them away from family, friends and familiarity in the same way that people living further north may not want to move south. I wonder what the statistics would be like for say Manchester Uni applicants.

In all honesty I know plenty of people who grew up 'up North', could have gone to Oxbridge but chose not to for a variety of reasons. They mostly stayed living up North, earn good salaries in a variety of Northern cities, have a generally low cost of living, and their families nearby.

My Southern friends generally have the choice between horrendous commutes or ridiculously overpriced housing, or moving far away from their families and friends to move up North.

If I was clever and lived up North, I wouldn't be in a rush to move down South far away from my family. I'd make the most of having the tools to succeed where I was and enjoy the higher standard of living.

I suspect Richmond the same, plus a few high achieving private schools as well.

Actually, the state schools in RuT are not great, but, as you say, there are a lot of private schools, and a lot of children travelling out of borough to attend private schools.

Not rocket science is it

*Richmond has wealth and private schools aplenty.

The inequality within London is huge.*

It would interesting to see the comparison between say Richmond and the neighbouring borough of Hounslow.

Hounslow being deprived, over crowded and just your bog standard comprehensives school.

The difference between the two is stark, sadly very common.

It’s all down to money and status

Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield all have world class universities of their own fpr starters.

They'll also have fewer students who are privately educated than these affluent boroughs. Also the comprehensive schools will be far more mixed, a good comp in Richmond and Barnet will be full of kids who live in million pound houses

Not many up here would want to go to Oxbridge unless they wanted to work in London tbh. A degree is a degree, it's the class of it that counts to most up here, not where your classroom was.

They’re affluent boroughs
Maybe compare them with eg Lewisham and Haringey rather than with the North as I think there would be a desire not to be so far from home

It would interesting to see the comparison between say Richmond and the neighbouring borough of Hounslow

I think Eton College is in Hounslow so might skew your stats a bit!

It winds me up when people talk about how Oxford / Cambridge select on the basis of wealth / family / accent. This is tripe and by continually repeating these lies you are perpetuating the issue as people will be put off from applying., If people don't apply, as they think it's "not for the like of us", then they're obviously not going to get in.

As has been mentioned above, the ratio of acceptances to places across the country is roughly equal. More private schools (who only admit the brightest pupils) and higher earning parents (thus being able to afford tuition) does help, but I think part of it is that for these students, going to Oxbridge is something that is relatively normal, as people from their school have been and it was OK. Compare that to a student outside London, in a school where nobody has ever been to Oxbridge, who is hearing how posh Oxbridge is and it's no wonder that it doesn't appeal.

The guardian did a really useful article where they went behind the scenes during the admissions process - Cambridge Admissions.

Note - for disclosure, I went to Cambridge from a comprehensive school and am from a WC background. The college I went to had a higher % of state school students than the norm (the college you go to makes a real difference) and my friends were the children of a coal miner and bus driver. Other college have a different make up.

It's not difficult to get to Cambridge from Leeds/Sheffield at all. An extra hour drive/train is hardly going to make the difference to a journey most people will be doing maybe 10 times in a year.

Ali86 has said why - not as many people apply. So, looking at the table in the admissions report for Oxford, there was pretty much the same proportion of people offered a place from London as there was Yorkshire. But London does have a disproportionately high share when compared to the proportion of students gaining high grades (London has 25.9% of those admitted compared to 18.3% of the highest grades, Yorkshire had 4.3% admitted compared to 6.3% of the highest grades).

And I'm sorry to say, but Oxbridge is better for a significant number of subjects than any of the northern universities. Certainly for most STEM subjects Cambridge has a better reputation and standing with employers (yes I know, lots of caveats to this).

I think that there are a lot of misconceptions around applying. I benefited from going to a private school that had a history of sending people to Oxbridge, but some of my friends in state schools were actively discouraged by teachers, when they would have been more than capable. (This is over 20 years ago, so I'd hope would have changed a bit at least). It is also far cheaper in terms of living expenses to go to Cambridge than most other universities - accommodation in many colleges is provided for the whole course, is cheaper than most private student accommodation (even in northern cities), and you only pay for 30 weeks a year.

I suspect that northerners make up a very small proportion of admissions to London universities. And many of them really are on a par with Oxbridge in terms of reputation.

And for those mocking the transport issue, yes the links exist but finding the money to attend open days and interviews is a really big deal for poorer students. And yet another reason they tend to look more locally.

And I think that post from whats has just exemplified the "ignorance gap" around this issue perfectly.

Whose ignorance?

Yes to a lack of encouragement / active discouragement from teachers. I applied as it was the best University for my chosen subject. My teacher looked aghast when I said I was applying - "are you sure? We've never had anyone get in there."

Affluent, grammar schools, private schools

Knowing people who went to Oxbridge or having family that went is no longer an advantage, in fact it is a disadvantage. I know someone (working class background from near Manchester actually) who went, made a ton of cash, donated a pile of it to his old college and they rejected his son because of that. Son is a lovely boy who is also mixed race. Go figure. This obsession with privilege and elitism is so damaging. I have been involved with and met many young people from all sorts of backgrounds who were clever enough to achieve Oxbridge and will go on to do great things to benefit us all. That is what matters, the quality of the education and ideas.

Do any of you really believe transport links are the reason? I had no idea such ignorance still existed.

I mentioned transport in terms of not wanting to trek that far to Uni and back again during the holidays (assuming you wanted to see your friends and family back home). Not in a sense that there was no transport which could get you to the uni. Logically why would a bright student choose to travel so far when there were options much closer and just as good?

DC is now in their 20s but, when applying for uni, flat out refused to apply for Oxford or Cambridge. At the time they put it down to wanting a better work/life balance at uni and after getting A* in their A levels had a brilliant time at Durham. Now though they have admitted that they were intimidated by the thought of the interview process and didn’t feel that they would fit in socially. Only a couple of their cohort went to Oxbridge despite a lot of kids doing well in their A levels. Perhaps if it were more ‘the norm’ my DC would have felt better equipt to face the interview process and be able to imagine themselves studying there.

Incidentally to those mentioning transport, there were a couple of unis my DC didn’t apply to as we couldn’t afford the train to the open day, so it’s not as crazy a suggestion as it sounds.

Queenunikitty - they rejected his son because of that.

Really because of that? Bear in mind that there are several (often over 5) applicants per place and pretty much every applicant is expected to receive the A*AA required. Lots of people get rejected despite having the required grades.

I’m from one of those two places, my ds’s school was a top independent there. He wasn’t bright enough to be considered for Oxbridge but a disproportionate number at the school were, and it was just assumed from an early age that is where they would go to uni.

A lot of them had older siblings at Oxbridge or parents who had been.

I'm not dismissing cost of transport as being a potential factor, it's more that there seems to be a concept that Oxbridge is a long journey from the North, but Cambridge at least really isn't. From Sheffield it is probably easier (or as easy) to get to as Durham.

Sorry forgot to mention - coming from Yorkshire.