To ask why two London boroughs send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined?

[nickymanchester]

I was reading an article in The Guardian today which claimed that more children from the London boroughs of Richmond and Barnet go to Oxbridge than all of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined.

For context, the population of Richmond and Barnet combined is about 540k (Barnet actually has quite a lot of people living there) according to the ONS - so about the same population as Sheffield.

David Lammy says England is failing those who don't go to university

This is the quote:-

He noted that university access data reveals that geography is as much of a fault line as class or race. “Two London boroughs, Richmond and Barnet, send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined,” he said.

So, is it just down to all the private schools in London? Or is there something else affecting these figures as well?

I get so angry in these threads I really shouldn’t engage. Only a hour ago DS and I were talking about our friends’ DS (also his friend) who is interested in a particular university but isn’t going to the open day. His parents (both hard working and with three jobs between them) don’t have a car and they simply do not have the money to pay for train tickets, which are a fortune. This boy is doing all his research on the internet. He is bright, sporty and full of gumption but if he can’t afford to travel, then that’s just how things are.

Well said, Howwudufeel.

Thank you Freefreesia for posting that fascinating article.

@howduyoufeel

That sounds awful. Can I suggest that you help this boy to access some of the outreach programmes run by Oxbridge?. His school should be doing this for him but if they aren’t, maybe you could.

Wadham College - which has a particularly good scheme- offers summer schools etc for state school students. They pay for meals and accommodation and contribute £50 to travel costs - or more if needed. Other colleges offer similar.

Phone them (or any other college) up. They are very helpful.

I will do but it is tricky raising things like that with friends. Incidentally I know about the outreach scheme at Oxford because DS is going on one soon. I think he has to pay £48 towards the cost of staying overnight.

Bus fares are much cheaper than train though, howwudufeel and a young person can cope with a longer journey and a few changes if necessary.

The bus takes 8 hours. How can you possibly do an open day with a 16 hour round trip?

Where roughly does he need to travel from and to, just to get an idea?

Do you not believe me? NW to Oxford.

Stay overnight in a youth hostel, or ask the college as they sometimes have rooms available. Camp? Sofa surfing website?

The bus takes 8 hours. How can you possibly do an open day with a 16 hour round trip?

Have him call up the colleges he's interested in and explain his circumstances. There's a decent chance that they may be able do something to help.

Those are decent ideas but I am not sure how possible they would be for a boy who is still only 16? Perhaps the hostel idea is the best option.

ChristmasInJuly
those from more affluent backgrounds can do Philosophy at Oxford

Well, no, they can't, because not all the riches of Croesus would buy you a philosophy degree at Oxford. There is no such course offered at that university. You have to do it as a joint degree; Philosophy Politics and Economics, say, or Philosophy and Theology, or Physics and Philosophy, or Classics, or several others, but never Philosophy on its own.

I know because it is what my daughter wanted to do there, and it was not possible. Money didn't enter into it because she had an all-expenses scholarship, but the course not existing was a bit of a drawback to her plans.

askingquestionsallthetime I think Christmas was making the broader point that dc from less affluent backgrounds are less likely to choose a subject like Philosophy because it makes them vulnerable to the job market. They are far more likely to chose a vocational subject in order to secure a job, which in turn pays off their debt.

MONEY
EXPECTATIONS

Don’t assume that a child at a private school has a better chance. Not all private schools seem to be able to “crack” the Oxbridge admission code. The school that my DC’s go to have relatively few Oxbridge students despite outstanding A Level results whereas another private school in the area gets loads more in despite having weaker results!

Oxbridge attracts and breeds a certain type of individual. There are more of that type in affluent areas of London, visibly being something to aspire to. People in the north aren’t around that type of person as much, we don’t aspire to move in their circles purely because we don’t see those circles, so we choose our education in a different way.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

A pure philosophy degree is offered at Cambridge- did that not interest your daughter?

PianoTuner567

Because they’re two of the most affluent areas of the UK? Those boroughs include Hampstead

Hampstead is in LB Camden.

YANBU to ask - it’s because smarter people live in the south - and we breed smarter kids.

*howwudufeel

I get so angry in these threads I really shouldn’t engage. Only a hour ago DS and I were talking about our friends’ DS (also his friend) who is interested in a particular university but isn’t going to the open day. His parents (both hard working and with three jobs between them) don’t have a car and they simply do not have the money to pay for train tickets, which are a fortune. This boy is doing all his research on the internet. He is bright, sporty and full of gumption but if he can’t afford to travel, then that’s just how things are.

Firstly he should travel by coach - much much cheaper, if he calls Oxford, they have host families who will put him up for the night for the cost of his evening meal only.
Cambridge probably do the same.

Grace, it didn't; she wanted Oxford, wanted it enough to tell the army that no, thank you, she had an offer of a place at Oxford and if they didn't want to pay for her to go there she'd go there anyway but they wouldn't get her at the end of it; they gulped a bit and said "what do you want to read?" and when she said "philosophy and theology" they were strangely enthusiastic.

(Which slightly puts a damper on "Philosophy won't get you a job"..... As it turned out, they put up with Oxford for the philosophy, not philosophy for Oxford.)

What I am finding interesting about this thread is that it is about a very small part of David Lammy's point, which was really not a lot to do with Oxbridge; Under the headline

David Lammy says England is failing those who don't go to university
(note, not those who do or do not go to Oxbridge; those who do not go even to the University of Ippelpen East)

the opening of the piece linked by the OP reads

"England’s education system is failing young people who don’t go to university because there are too few quality routes for vocational education, says David Lammy, a Labour MP."

It's a far more interesting piece than just "let's have a go at two good universities for not being able to take every single person who wants to go to university at all".

It's all about the money...

@howwudyafeel

But I don't think your example helps. There are lots of things in place and he is 16 (5th year/year 11?) The open days will start in September for his year 12. There are lots of options and there are a whole load of people, students, alumni, staff, support, teachers who are busting a gut, sometimes on their own time, to ensure that boys like the one you mention don't lose out due to parents income.

I would start with the megabus - lots of students/adults using that for a £1. Each borough/district in the country is affiliated to a specific college. They also have representatives in councils that filter by location. The idea behind this is that no child slips through the net. The schools are identified by two criteria (I can't remember what they are called but I can dig it out) and this is used for contextual grades that benefit bright students from underachieving schools. This year Oxford are running a summer school just for teachers (focus on under achieving areas) to clarify the entry process. They sent out guidance to teachers on how pupils can apply and what tutors look for. There are loads of videos on youtube from colleges and students that show how the interview works. So, if a school doesn't provide the help, there are links like the student room, facebook groups, and crucially, the universities themselves that will help if you contact them. A 16 year old is young but could easily have spent a night away from home with the scouts, etc. Is it possible for them to come with a friend/save up from a paperround/ for the fare?

I don't want to dismiss legitmate points about money but neither do I want other people to read it and think it is definitive. People are doing this stuff, and that is who the 16 year old is competing with. I don't suppose a lot of graduates advertise their humble backgrounds in the way some people think wealthy graduates do but they have found a way to make things work and are making sure that is available to others.

It is there. It also takes a certain type of person to see it and that is who they are looking for.

sorry, that was meant in reply to @howwudufeel and I have just realised she didn't say it was Oxbridge, just a university.

I grew up in Yorkshire, and graduated from the University of Sheffield. Then moved down to London, and am raising my kids in Richmond Upon Thames.

Looking around, I can really see why so many of the kids go to Oxbridge - education is a really important selling point of the borough, and the local councillors know it. So the state schools are all pretty good, the elbows are sharp, everyone has personal tutors. I think that @Catloons is absolutely nailing it here (although she's perhaps forgotten Waldegrave GS exists? That's a big one!).

My DS1 is doing GCSE maths at the moment, and he's in primary school (year 6). Failed the Tiffin exam. The competition here is fierce. That just sets you up well for Oxbridge, and even corporate life. And yes, money really talks - would be silly to deny it.