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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why two London boroughs send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined?

463 replies

nickymanchester · 17/06/2019 12:09

I was reading an article in The Guardian today which claimed that more children from the London boroughs of Richmond and Barnet go to Oxbridge than all of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined.

For context, the population of Richmond and Barnet combined is about 540k (Barnet actually has quite a lot of people living there) according to the ONS - so about the same population as Sheffield.

David Lammy says England is failing those who don't go to university

This is the quote:-

He noted that university access data reveals that geography is as much of a fault line as class or race. “Two London boroughs, Richmond and Barnet, send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined,” he said.

So, is it just down to all the private schools in London? Or is there something else affecting these figures as well?

OP posts:
howwudufeel · 18/06/2019 20:33

Catloons he is 16 but year 12.

Catloons · 18/06/2019 20:46

howwud - I get you. Could he not do a summer job and save the train fare? Not sure when the Open Day is - next term?

I go up to Liverpool a fair bit as I now have a cousin up there and prices really vary. Sometimes it’s about £40 return for myself and 3 kids, other times it can be about £90. I’m never sure why, I think it depends on how far ahead you book, but the sometimes this seems to make no difference. I’m sure once it only cost £15 to get there as there was some deal on.He could get a Young Person’s railcard or a Family and Friend’s railcard. It’s a one off payment of £30, but you make that back on the fare straight away. Maybe if he rings the uni they can suggest something, if he hasn’t already? They must get asked this all the time. No uni wants to be regarded as non-inclusive.

howwudufeel · 18/06/2019 20:55

Things would be easier if train fares weren’t so high and variable. I am sure he could save some money. I know my own DS has built up a little war chest through his job so I know it can be done.

Lovely13 · 18/06/2019 20:56

? Those boroughs include Hampstead, Finchley Hampstead is in borough of Camden. Finchley has some wealthy parts but plenty of ordinary parts as well as rundown estates. Barnet is the biggest borough population wise in London with a huge diaspora. The council is also facing bankruptcy. So don’t think it’s just wealth or grammar schools ( there are I think three in borough) that’s behind the oxbridge stats.

loveyou3000 · 18/06/2019 21:06

When I was at school, a grammar, Oxbridge was really pushed at us from the get go. I felt like a failure when I didn't get As. We all did. It really impacted our self-esteem. I won't ever forget my friend crying for hours on GCSE results day because she was a few marks off an A. In the end the pressure was too much and I dropped out of my A levels. I chose dropping out over going to any other uni than Oxford or Cambridge, yes I'm aware how utterly ridiculous that is looking back. We were never told the actually important stuff- like the student satisfaction ratings, bursaries, facilities, what is the top uni for your degree subject etc.
I ended up going to uni at the age of 22, after doing an access course, I now had a toddler so needed to stay local so my first choice was the closest uni. It's not the top uni for my degree subject by a long shot but I can't be picky! It does however have a small campus, great support for student parents, small seminar group sizes, one on one support with learning, good transport links to and from my house, a decent bursary for low income students and student parents, a good law library and I'm doing really well. I'd feel lost in a bigger uni. I have friends who did go to Oxford and I've met lots of their course mates and they're all lovely people, not at all snobby, mostly educated privately or at a grammar but a few from low income families too. Oxbridge isn't the be all and end all of universities, and I wish we'd stop pushing it on certain students like they're the best unis to be at. I also don't think starting uni at 18 is always the best idea, and taking a few years out has meant I can afford to live on my own, I'm done with my drinking and having fun so I really throw myself into the course, I still had a whale of a time in my late teens, and I don't have to rely on my parents for extra financial support whilst at uni. I wasn't ready to go at 18, and several of my course mates have dropped out because they weren't ready to start at 18 either, what a waste of a year for them but that's another topic entirely!

ferrier · 18/06/2019 21:13

Selective schooling.

CharlotteLV · 18/06/2019 22:01

The stats at Oxbridge reflect the profile of applicants. No applicant group is under-represented in the student population. It's true that people don't want to travel a long way to go to university. I think also schools aren't all that enthusiastic about sending kids there, and state schools don't have the resources to prepare them. Oxford (where I work) spends vast sums on access and outreach work, and on bursaries for students with financial need, but we're still not getting the right people to apply. This is our latest, huge effort: www.ox.ac.uk/news/2019-05-20-two-new-oxford-initiatives-help-students-under-represented-backgrounds

user1488038434 · 18/06/2019 22:12

There are over 4000 secondary schools in the UK. Reading from the Locrating website, league tables measuring across the UK (based on A Level results) show that around 15 of the top 50 are selective independent or grammar schools based in and around Richmond/Barnet.

Catloons · 18/06/2019 22:14

how - I can understand your frustration about the students who don’t have the obstacles that this boy may have. Sometimes though, it can just take one person to turn things around. In my case, I was the first ever in my family to go to uni and this was down to a particular teacher who forced me to apply! My parents had absolutely no concept of education whatsoever and no money anyway. It’s easy to look at “privileged” people and assume they had everything handed to them on a plate, but in my experience, appearances can so often be deceptive. For instance, DH came here as a young child with refugee parents in crisis. Until the age of 10 he lived in various temporary accommodations. His parents divorced due to his father’s serious mental health problems, which were probably a result of having been tortured and forced to leave his home country with 24 hours notice, all assets frozen and he was forced onto a plane at gunpoint. His father spent years in psychiatric institutions and never recovered. Meanwhile, his mother, an Iranian woman with poor English and no marketable skills, managed to get DH a part-bursary to a local independent in the Luton area. She worked 3 jobs to pay the rest of the fees. DH went to a “mid-range” uni, but ended up with a first and the faculty prize. He managed to somehow get into options trading and learned the job on his feet while being treated like shit in his early 20s while also completing an MBA. In his late 20s he founded a company with a few uni friends which they sold ten years later for over a billion.

I guess what I’m saying is, whether you get to this uni or that, it’s what you do after uni that counts. Also when you look at people who appear “privileged”, it really is so often the case that you only have to go back a generation to realise that where they have actually come from was anything but privileged.

Today, I’ve had 6 16 year olds here - one who zi was chatting to is at the school in a full bursary. This year she went on a school trip to China free. She will get all 9s at GCSE. She’s of Ethiopian heritage and her mum is a single mum. She wants to be a brain surgeon. She told me she wants to study at Edinburgh for this and I have no doubt she will achieve all this and more. She’s quite amazing actually.

Then there is a boy who could appear to be in the super-privileged elite because his family live in Covent Garden and he’s off to summer school at Harvard. He will get all 9s, but he’s one of the most lovely, genuine humble kids you could meet. His parents are Syrian immigrants who studied in the US which explains why they want this for their kids.

There was a girl of Ukrainian heritage whose family were forced to flee in her lifetime; a boy of Chinese background who is also on a full bursary, is a maths and musical genius, and his whole family of 5 live in two rooms. Then there’s a Venezuelan girl who lives in a Knightsbridge mansion! So there’s no typical “privileged London independent school type” as far as I can see. These kids have been friends for years and I can honestly say that none of them judge each other for their vastly different backgrounds. They just really get on and take each other as they come.

SarahAndQuack · 18/06/2019 22:18

@charlotteLV, this is not the case for Cambridge.

As of 2017, the average acceptance rate was 20%.

For men it was 19%, but for black men, it was only 16%. Lest we think it's all about men, of groups surveyed, Pakistani women only had a 12.5% chance of getting in.

Yes, Oxbridge can only admit people who apply, and yes, much more should be done on outreach. But it's possible there are other factors too, no?

Supergirlthesecond · 18/06/2019 22:28

It is so much more complex than it seems, isn't it? Some of those private school kids might come from care/social services and be on bursaries, etc.

I also remember talking to a friend who said she didn't want to go there because of the pressure back in her country on Oxbridge graduates. She said the expectations on her would be more than she wanted so she applied instead to a lesser known London institution.

ColaFreezePop · 18/06/2019 22:41

@FancyAPint - that's the norm in London schools and has been for decades. Lots of kids go to secondary and/or 6th form in a different borough as their parents think the education is better.

I ended up doing my 6th form in a different borough and 70% of the people I studied with had gone to independent/public schools. Most of their parents were gaming the system to get them in to uni as state educated. Interestingly both the comp I left and the 6th form had the same percentage of Oxbridge applicants. The 6th form had higher exam results overall because like lots of secondaries who achieve high exam results they remove under performing pupils.

I also know two women whose parents turned down Tiffin Girls as they didn't want to go, so they went to a Comp in a different borough and they both have ended up having successful careers.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/06/2019 22:45

I've not RTFT yet but got as far as
And the interviewing panels may well be prejudiced against northern accents!

And feel compelled to say BOLLOCKS.

...and breath...Grin

Supergirlthesecond · 18/06/2019 22:57

yes, @Errol. Pretty sure there are tutors at Oxbridge who are from the North themselves.

CaptainNelson · 18/06/2019 23:01

There are. My friend is one; she's from Scotland.

Supergirlthesecond · 18/06/2019 23:04

@Errol and tutors who studied for their undergraduate/postgraduate degrees at universities other than Oxbridge. That's another myth that needs dispelling. Many tutors will have experienced other unis as students themselves.

Zipee · 18/06/2019 23:06

Plenty of people from normal backgrounds at Oxbridge, but like any Russell Group university there are going to be lots of people from privileged backgrounds, far more than your average comp kid will be used to.

When you work out from the students hoe many kids are from private, grammar and "leafy comps" with expensive catchment areas they are going to make up the majority.

It doesn't mean they shouldn't aim high however. When we run tutorials about application to elite universities students get told " Aim for the stars and you might hit the moon" . Cheesy but can be effective.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/06/2019 00:21

Having skimmed the thread, there's a fair few other bollocksy posts ... myths, outdated views, plain misinformation...

Anyhow... the answer to the OPs question is that obviously there are a lot of different factors contributing to the disproportionate numbers geographically. DDs northern grammar does support pupils to apply to Oxbridge (as does the boys' counterpart) - with reasonable success rate. But overall, the unis her peers applied to were overwhelmingly in the north of England and Scotland. When you look at the number of good unis in those areas down to the midlands, and consider the cost of London and some of the other southern uni towns , and transport, its hardly surprising.

Seren85 · 19/06/2019 00:31

For once I've broken my own rule and NRTFT but I've been thinking about the thread title all day. I'm from an ex mining town about 12 miles outside of Manchester. I got straight As at GSCE and Alevel, did work experience and additional activities. I was strongly encouraged to apply to Oxbridge. I refused. I was the first in my family to go to Uni, lived in an area which meant I was offered money if I went. But no. That was probably my 17 year old brain talking, but it seemed so very different to what I'm used to but also what I LIKE. I didn't want to be working class done good, I love all the stuff about my background. I don't want to go to Balls etc. I think I was probably a bit reverse snobby about it but I don't think I'd have been happy. But then, I love eight miles from my family home and it feels too far.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/06/2019 00:42

The balls really are optional. DDs main May week fun this year seems to have been participating in the Cardboard Boat race - costing a roll or two of duck tape and every shred of dignity, AFAIK.Grin

Emergencycake · 19/06/2019 00:59

Interestingly I was chatting to a friend at the weekend who's mate has kids in school in Richmond. Apparently they got called into school as their child was falling behind (age 6) and they wanted to know what the parents were planning to do about it. I was a big shocked, but was told that a lot of schools in that area are super competitive and quite pushy. Would be interested to know if that was true.

M1Mountain · 19/06/2019 06:45

Catloons many refugees and immigrants are from the educated wealthier middle classes.Many will be highly successful. It often takes money to emigrate. I get a bit uncomfortable when posters shove in the words immigrant and refugee as if that instantly makes them people to be pitied. Many people from all walks of life have struggles and mental health issues.The fact is if you are going to a private or state school with an eyewatering expensive catchment in one of these Oxbridge over subscribed areas you are privileged and part of a system that is hugely unfair however humble the Harvard summering teen is. The system needs changing and needs to improve help for all other classes in other areas as this is the demographics of the UK as a whole. Oxbridge should represent students from all parts of the country and all classes not the rich from Richmond and Barnet and a few token pp kids for good measure. I don’t know how anybody can justify this.

Catloons · 19/06/2019 07:20

I’m not disputing that M1. The point I was making is that many “privileged” people were not born privileged. I live in this “Richmond Borough”, as I say. There are elderly people who probably bought their houses in the 70s or something for a few thousand and now they’re worth millions. Yes there are some people who have had a “leg up” from wealthy parents. But equally, most people are self-made and that’s why they can afford to live her. That’s why their kids are now privileged. So why vilify people for that and tell them they “don’t understand” or that they are “everything wrong with the system.” Nobody gave these people anything!

Some of the posters on here who perceive that their background is a disadvantage - well, yes it is. Nobody would dispute that. But if the child is successful (and there’s a lot more to that than “Oxbridge” Grin), who is to say they went won’t be the next generation who ends up with “privileged” children in certain schools etc. And if they do, would you blame them?

Catloons · 19/06/2019 07:23

It’s hypocritical to say you want you child to beat the odds, but then criticise the people who have done just that.

busyhonestchildcarer · 19/06/2019 07:45

It is I feel a little naive to put this down to personal choice.We are changing our views on wealth in this country ignoring the facts which are that opportunities mainly are for the rich.We are not all born equal.Barristers for example where 75% of them come from private schools.Doesnt sound too bad but it is when only 2% of the population go to private school.We should demand equal opportunities for our children .We should want those with the brightest brains to succeed not the fattest wallets

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