To ask why two London boroughs send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined?

[nickymanchester]

I was reading an article in The Guardian today which claimed that more children from the London boroughs of Richmond and Barnet go to Oxbridge than all of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined.

For context, the population of Richmond and Barnet combined is about 540k (Barnet actually has quite a lot of people living there) according to the ONS - so about the same population as Sheffield.

David Lammy says England is failing those who don't go to university

This is the quote:-

He noted that university access data reveals that geography is as much of a fault line as class or race. “Two London boroughs, Richmond and Barnet, send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined,” he said.

So, is it just down to all the private schools in London? Or is there something else affecting these figures as well?

Most people aren't self made, although there was increased social mobility in the 50s, 60s and 70s this was in most part doen to state intervention.

Since 1980 social mobility has nose dived and is now at the same level as it was in the 1930s

Oh and someone buying their house for a few thousands in the 70s and them now being worth millions is of course very little to do with them and far more to the growth of the economy in London . Richmond has always been a wealthy area too.

What people object to is the massive over representation of children from privileged backgrounds at these universities, I'd advise you to go read the Sutton Trust report on it, which says that both need to do more to diversify their intake.

Your child hasn’t beaten the odds he was born into privilege with a very wealthy father and private education in one of the boroughs Oxbridge clearly likes And so it goes on.

People all over the U.K. beat the odds in many ways. Most however aren’t lucky enough to beat the odds to the extent that they can afford private education or live in Barnet/Richmond. There are immigrants all over the U.K., most are not wealthy enough to afford private education or lucky enough to be supported to live in these area.Why shouldn’t it be an even playing field that encompasses everybody elsewhere?

Anybody who could afford to buy a house in Richmond in the seventies would have been very wealthy. Whilst the house prices at that time may have been ‘thousands’ that would still have been prohibitively expensive to the vast majority of the population.

Again, I’m not disputing any of this and you don’t need to tell me!
I just think it’s wrong though to stereotype everyone who ends up living in certain parts of London as having been born into some kind of privileged elite. This is simply untrue.

@howwudufeel there are parts of the borough of Richmond that aren't expensive to buy in compared to the rest of London, and Richmond also has council housing. It would have actually been easier in the 70s to buy a property there or get a council house there then now.

@ferrier Richmond doesn't have selective schooling.

M1 - no I’m not saying my DC have besten any odds! You are missing the point, However, I think I did as I’ve ended up in another country to my own and I’m not a olive farmer DH has beaten the odds as he was born with a physical disability which meant he missed a lot of primary school; to refugee parents who came here with NOTHING; divorced parents; cultural / language difficulties; racism; poor housing and a schizophrenic father. So it’s because he has beaten the odds that his children don’t have to.

That was probably my 17 year old brain talking, but it seemed so very different to what I'm used to but also what I LIKE. I didn't want to be working class done good, I love all the stuff about my background. I don't want to go to Balls etc. I think I was probably a bit reverse snobby about it but I don't think I'd have been happy.

Seren85
I find it interesting that your sense was that by going to Oxford or Cambridge you would somehow have been relinquishing your connection with your background, or be unable to go back to live in the North, or change fundamentally as a person. I never saw it as a one-way street, I saw it as three years studying somewhere beautiful with an excellent academic record. I suspect that some people around you were too quick with the “oh you’ll change”, “you’ll be too good for the likes of us” casual comments and that stuck. Comments that come from a place of ignorance and possibly jealousy.
It’s also a shame that even now, with the benefit of maturity and hindsight you think that the social life would have been all about going to Balls. That is only one tiny aspect of the social life available there, and is by no means compulsory. Only about 20% of colleges even have a Ball. It’s myths like that which give people such a distorted impression of what they are rejecting.

Also, out if hundreds of people I know who live in this borough or in Putney, Wimbledon etc, I can only think of one woman who was actually born here. Most British people here are from outside London - “the north” even - and came here as adults. I couldn’t tell you who went to Oxbridge and who was born where because nobody is bothered about such things.

But we’re not talking about the parents we’re talking about the children who go to private schools living in one of the most expensive parts of the country in areas that feed Oxbridge. However they lucked out they are now privileged and part of a very unfair system which needs to change.

The system is unfair. Of course it is. But believing misinformation and stereotypes only perpetuates and strengthens this inequality. At the end of the day, this is your country and these are your universities. The British education system and curriculum is envied and copied across the world, including the state education system which is over 90% of schools. Regardless of the issues relating to social mobility here, there is far more opportunity here than for most people across the globe. I never went to Oxbridge. I’m not even British but if I had been intelligent enough to apply there I wouldn’t have thought, “Oh they’re all privileged British aristocratic types”. It’s obvious to me that there would be some like this but equally, most people wouldn’t have fitted that stereotype at all! Even if they are privileged aristocratic types, well so what? It doesn’t follow that we wouldn’t have anything in common.

Catloons you are probably a very nice and well meaning person but the complexity of social inequality is proving very hard to unravel to the extent that every expert acknowledges its going backwards. Your experience of the UK appears to be confined to a very small part of London. I wonder whether you truly understand how the rest of the UK works and how people live. Believe me that many people outside London have a fantastic standard of living and there are talented and clever people in the regions. However, being trapped in poverty born into the wrong class and with the wrong accent is the reality for many people and it is not just a case of them not having the wit to pull their socks up and get on with things, as you seem to think it is.

I’ve lived in Brixton, Clapham, Hackney, Battersea, Victoria. We only came here when we had kids and I was about 30 then. There is inequality in every country. Why would you assume I can’t grasp that?

There is inequality in every country but it doesn't mean that institutions that are aware of it, and have the means to address issues without damaging their own standing should do nothing about it.

Very very few people will go to Oxbridge anyway, privileged or not. You don’t need to go there to be successful. You can get a great degree anywhere and it’s what you do afterwards that counts.

Catloons The places you have reeled off as having lived in just reinforce the fact you are looking at this issue through a prism.

The sad fact of it all is, state school students can get the same degree from the same institution and are still likely to be earning less than their privately educated peers after 5 years.

Just encouraging meritocracy in education isn't enough.

you can get a great degree anywhere

yes you can, if you get the right grades. If however your local library has closed due to council cuts, you go to a failing school have to work part-time to bring money into the house it can be hard to get the results which would get you into a good university.

Anyway, I’m not at the stage of uni applications just yet with my DC, but I do think some “institutions of privilege” are trying to change and be more inclusive - slowly but surely. For instance, the school my DC are at is in a very mixed, urban area and they have an outreach programme that goes into schools where children may be disadvantaged; identifies those with academic potential and runs a Saturday school programme through years 5 and 6 to prepare them for the 11 plus exams. Once a child is accepted into the school, there is a policy they no child will be denied the opportunity of an overseas trip or any other experience on the basis of their economic background. If there is a trip your child would like to go on but you genuinely can’t afford it, you fill in a form and the bursary scheme will cover it. Over 20% of pupils there are on some form of bursary and there are targets to double this within the next ten years. In fact the school got an award for “enabler of social mobility” ;or something like that) last year, alongside the NHS! It took in the students and teachers whose school was affected by Grenfell to allow them to complete their A-levels. Social mobility is the major ethos of the school and permeates every aspect of the experience there.

Catloons The places you have reeled off as having lived in just reinforce the fact you are looking at this issue through a prism.”

Well I’m sure I do look st life through my own prism, but then so do you. Everyone does. With respect, you have absolutely no idea where I come from. A “failing school” here wouid be considered pretty good in some parts of the world, believe it or not. As for libraries closing down - what libraries? What public transport?

I really don’t see things through a prism because I am certain I have a wider life experience than you. Having said that, unlike you, I am not married to a billionaire so you do have that on me

And I think that comparisons to countries where there are no libraries or public transport is daft. Are you saying that kids in the UK should be grateful there once was a library in their town because in other parts of the world libraries don’t exist?

I wonder if America's premier Harvard & Yale institutions are similarly targetted by hopefuls?

Kingston is it's own borough and Hampstead is most certainly not part of Barnet To correct another previous poster Richmond has no grammar schools, not a single one Neighbouring Kingston has Tiffin School (boys) and Tiffin Girls

howwud - well I can see that you’ve taken it upon yourself to decide that you have a “wider life experience” than me, so that’s that then really isn’t it. Because I have 3 DC in private school, you have concluded that I can’t possibly understand anything. So there you go.

I do wish you son and his friend all the best with whatever unis they apply to. I wish them every success in the future and hope that if, one day, they are in the position to be able to send their children to independent schools, that you remember they are still the same people they are today, with the same myriad of experiences and perspectives that their particular path has shown.