To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?

[thetonsillolith]

I am fully supportive of the LGBTQ community and don't feel it is my position to question or undermine those who believe they were born in the wrong body.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing. Probably because I'm worried about being shouted down.

This is part of the problem isn't it? I should speak up.

Does anybody else feel like this or is it just me?

awaits tumbleweed*

Can you answer my question first Decomposing?

Why do we have sex-segregated spaces? Do you think they’re important?

As females, they’re entitled to use female spaces. I personally hate the typical way we design changing rooms as it stands.

I agree with Decomposing on this point, if nothing else! There will be an issue with transmen using women’s facilities going forward. My view would be the provision of a third space.

Transwomen who live as women share virtually every experience with me. They have to deal with feeling vulnerable walking home, dismissed in meetings, objectified by some men

But transwomen experiencing these things (although from what I have seen Pip Bunce definitely isn't 'dismissed in meetings') comes from an entirely different place from why women experience these things. And if we want to tackle the root of the problem we have to recognise that.

Trans people aren't beaten up by men because they are 'women'. It's because they are men who dress like women.

Having 3 miscarriages is a uniquely female experience that no transwoman has ever had. There is no common ground there at all.

serena what does 'living as a woman' mean to you?

Can you describe how you
Walk as a woman?
Eat lunch as a woman?
Dress as a woman?
Sleep as a woman?

How do those things differ from the way a man does them?

I have never had 3 miscarriages either.
Must be a man in a woman's body.
No, not a woman's body. I can't reproduce.
Must just be a man.

If you succeed in maintaining segregation based on sex how will the issue of trans men be dealt with?

Decomposing, I have wondered this as well. Taking testosterone renders changes on a woman’s body that are permanent, and much more obvious in many cases than the effects of female hormones on a male body that has passed puberty. But generally men are not at risk from females who transition. So if, in general, those females wish to use male facilities, it shouldn’t cause a problem to the male users of those spaces.

When it comes to prisons, etc, I understand nobody has suggested transitioned females should be placed in the male estate, on the grounds it would be way too risky for the female in question, which is telling. Perhaps, if the women imprisoned with the female transitioner are uncomfortable, the female transitioner could be housed in the newly created trans wing at Downton prison.

Do I always use she/he?

It depends whether the sex of the poster is clear. I read a post that I thought made this unclear, but realised when re-examining it, that the poster was talking about “transwomen” in general, and not referring to self, as I originally assumed.

As regards sex segregated nspaces - I asked this yesterday and no one answered. If you succeed in maintaining segregation based on sex how will the issue of trans men be dealt with?

I answered this but you may have missed it

Actually, I think a pp even directed you to another thread where this was already being discussed.

My view is that this is one of the many discussions that needs to be had. Things are not black and white, there are many nuances and many needs to be met. Most of them can be solved common sense. So for example, the patient could specify their needs from the hcp. Many women don't mind a male hcp and may also not mind a transmale hcp or vice versa. Other women will prefer a natal female. Very much as it is now. But as I say it all needs to be openly and respectfully discussed.

The starting point was #nodebate.

That was when women really started to say, hang on a minute... and to express their concerns.

This was met with bigot, t**f, transphobe.

So women became even more concerned and began to form groups to discuss what this meant for them.

This was met with bomb threats, doxing, threats to kill, etc.

So much has happened. But the one thing that needed to happens still hasn't. That's why we continue to talk about it here and hope that more and more people will just stop and think. Just stop.

As long as Stonewall drives this, women have to resist. What else can they do? Do you really think acceptance without exception is right? Think about what without exception means.

I am in no way saying the following is anything to do with transpeople - I am using it as an example of what length male predators are willing to go to. Male paedophiles calling themselves MAP (minor attracted person) are campaigning to have MAP recognised as a sexual orientation. The Stonewall acceptance without exception would obviously include them. Because that's what without exception means. Now think about it again.

Actually, I think a pp even directed you to another thread where this was already being discussed.

Yes, that was me. I even provided her with a link when she asked. More fool me, eh. 👩 🔨

Butchy, I posted a screenshot of the post on page 35, about three or four posts from the top.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3607171-to-put-up-and-shut-up-with-the-transphobia-on-here?pg=35

Jarnsaxa Sun 09-Jun-19 00:52:30
I wonder if there's an Internet forum anywhere in the world right now where transmen and their allies are berating men for not being good boys.

I was recently speaking with my DH about this. He is involved in a couple of men's forums (not as in "men's rights" but as in activities and interests that are much more stereotypically of interest to men).

The topics though do sometimes cover surprisingly diverse areas (even blokes can't talk about cars or racing all the time) so these aren't just single subject forums.

There are threads about gender from time to time but DH says that
trans issues are never mentioned. Certainly there are never any trans women telling heterosexual men that they should have sex with another person who has a penis and that if they don't then they are transphobic.

I think it's quite telling that transwomen never try to attack heterosexual men who refuse to have sex with a person with a penis (at least I've never seen it happen neither has DH) but there are those that do attack lesbians for the same thing.

I actually know two young transwomen (I know this is just anecdote and not data) and they, and their friends, are very definitely attracted to males and not females. Yet they don't go around on social media demanding that heterosexual men must have sex with them, they're just quietly getting on with their lives and hoping that they'll meet a guy who will accept them.

It's this personal experience of talking to a couple of trans women that makes me very concerned about the tone taken by the very vocal trans movement and it's focusing on women and particularly lesbians.

Another big concern of mine is that an increasing acceptance of using hormones and surgery will place women under greater pressure to alter their bodies than they already are.

Cosmetic surgery has been around for a long time, usually for the benefit of men, but these ideas are now starting to seep into gay relationships as well.

A friend of mine is bisexual and she was in a lesbian relationship for quite some time. Her partner pressured her to become more masculine and pushed her to start taking testosterone. She carried on doing this for a couple of years (or it might just have been one year) to please her partner but it caused her so much anguish that eventually they split up.

She did say that she actually liked a couple of changes that the testosterone had, her face was more angular and she had a slightly deeper voice but that there were so many things she really did not like and that do not reverse after you stop taking it.

After they split up she met a bloke and they are happy now. It sort of shocked her that her new boyfriend actually found her attractive as a woman as her ex had been trying to change her into a man so she thought there must be something wrong with her.

This is all just added pressure on women.

MN has opened my eyes to so many of today’s issues re women’s rights. It would be tragic if there was literally nowhere online for these debates.

Transwomen who live as women share virtually every experience with me. They have to deal with feeling vulnerable walking home, dismissed in meetings, objectified by some men

Well no they don’t we can pull up a whole list of experiences that only women can possibly experience due to our bodies being different

And don’t forget transwomen are picking up awards that are for women as well being able to climb their career ladder as a man and also representing women as woman representatives for student and political unions when they have only very recently started presenting themselves as transwomen

I swear there is some kind of "auto post creator" out there that makes some of these posters' comments for them.

Must include

• mention of hiding the feminism board
• not real feminists
• pm from supportive people
• denial of trans existence
• and so on.

It gets like a script. Then the denouement - asking women who have already explained the same thing to the same "innocent" posters a thousand times, why they are so angry because that belittles their argument.

Honestly, don't you all have any imagination to write something a bit more original?

@Anyoldprion, thank you. Don’t see how that dictionary definition is, as the poster suggests, “open to interpretation” but, hey... 🤷‍♀️

Exactly sackrifice and if though people can say “not all trans women are like that” laws and protections need to factor in all those trans women who aren’t, in order to protect women. If you don’t agree with that, you presumably are prepared to accept some women and girls as collateral damage while the laws allow access to all those who come under the trans umbrella, an idea I find reprehensible.

Try again:

Exactly sackrifice and even though people can say “not all trans women are like that”, laws and protections need to factor in all those trans women who are, in order to protect women. If you don’t agree with that, you presumably are prepared to accept some women and girls as collateral damage while the laws allow access to all those who come under the trans umbrella, an idea I find reprehensible.

Not all men are like that but we still have laws to exclude them from sex segregated spaces. And they're ok with that. They get it. It's common sense.

Not all men are like that but we still have laws to exclude them from sex segregated spaces

Good job nobody on the thread has said that they agree with all men being allowed in then isn't it.

Fyette

Being a transwoman of course does not prevent a person from having severe mental health problems, psychopathic tendencies and being a danger to those around them.

In White's case as in many sex offender's cases, the cross dressing paraphilia is one of the severe mental problems that are part of the reason they are a danger to those around them. The fact that you call this dangerous paraphilia "trans woman" is a result of your adoption of the principles of gender identity politics. It's this manipulation of empathy which has led you to refer to this dangerous man as her which is the problem here, not how poorly the case was handled. There should not be a case for dangerous men to be called women on the basis of a paraphilic fetish.

You are absolutely advocating for this to happen by describing this as gender identity. You can all line up here with people that want us stamped out for resisting this violent and obscene abuse of women's freedom and identity in support of White.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism

Good job nobody on the thread has said that they agree with all men being allowed in then isn't it.

Eh?

Good job nobody on the thread has said that they agree with all men being allowed in then isn't it.

Is that sarcasm? Sorry, I'm not very good at recognising it without tone. I'm better when people say what they mean.

Good job nobody on the thread has said that they agree with all men being allowed in then isn't it.

Do you think Katie Dolatowski should be allowed in women’s toilets LimeLiwi?

Will the good men get badges to identify them as different to the bad ones?

What if they don't wear badges? How will we know?

In case it wasn't clear Lime, I was talking about men not transwomen. This is the problem when language gets messed around with!