To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?

[thetonsillolith]

I am fully supportive of the LGBTQ community and don't feel it is my position to question or undermine those who believe they were born in the wrong body.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing. Probably because I'm worried about being shouted down.

This is part of the problem isn't it? I should speak up.

Does anybody else feel like this or is it just me?

awaits tumbleweed*

What is a female body?

A body of the one of two sexes of adult humans, of the sex that produces non-motile gametes.

The vast majority of men are decent human beings who don’t harass and rape women, so why have we traditionally had women only spaces?
Because as with most things a small minority do behave this way and the only way to protect ourselves is to put up barriers and boundaries.
My husband would never try and look under a toilet cubicle to see if he could see a young girl change a tampon, he would never try to film a woman getting changed in the shop changing room next to him BUT he is still not allowed in women only spaces and he understands why and accepts this.
If all People who have Male bodies have to be excluded from women only spaces because SOME use this to their advantage then tough. Transwomen should be mad at the people who make the boundaries necessary, not those us who are fighting to keep them

Here you go outof

He/she posted the dictionary definition, then stated she/he believed it includes men who are transitioning. I can’t see any logic, but then I can’t see any logic in much of the ideology And I suspect he/she knows it’s a contentious statement with no basis in reality by the first part of the post.

This is the sort of boring no-facts-involved-argument that renders the regular posters on the feminism boards sick of this whole discussion, and this is one of the main reasons for the lack of patience shown by those who have been campaigning for women’s rights for some time.

I'm glad to see this thread has finally got around to discussing the specific concerns relating to women and the law.

I think it's largely down to EarlyWalker and others who have been able to give very specific examples of what they consider transphobia on mn so thank you so much for that. It's a shame we got 75% through the thread before we could actually start discussing the specifics of opposing viewpoints but at least we're getting there.

I do agree that Stonewall has done so much harm to LGBT community. The fact that Get the L Out even became a thing is very sad. Unfortunately for women, and transwomen, it is Stonewall who is pushing us to accept all variations of sexual kink into our lives and at the same time removing safeguarding. This is what women are fighting against.

And most of the population still aren't even aware of it which is why they are welcoming every definition of transpeople into their spaces with open arms without understanding what they are agreeing to. There needs to be much, much more debtate about how we can include transwomen and continue to exclude men. If that's not possible, what are we going to do.

Stonewall is bulldozing through

#nodebate
Transwomen are women
Acceptance without exception

These phrases say it all really don't they. How are we supposed to even start discussing all the concerns with them.

Existing on the planet as an adult, human, female.

Which means what? That will mean different things to different women.

As someone who’s been a victim of a random attack by a man, I will say it was Male on female violence. He attacked me because I was a woman. Did he know I was a biological woman? No, how could he? Did he know my genetic makeup and chromosome? No. He attacked me based on an assumption, that could have been made to a transwoman also.
My sister has never had a period, will never be able to have children. She has been passed over for a promotion for a male colleague, which we all believe to be on the basis of her being of ‘baby having’ Age.
They don’t know that she’s infertile, they’ve made an assumption based on appearance that could be made to a transwoman also.
The oppression that woman face is down to our biology, yes, but ultimately it is down to an assumption of our biology based on appearance.
When it comes to oppression, transwoman can actually be an asset in our fight to end Male violence and discrimination. As someone who’s seen the world through both sets of eyes so to speak.
I think that we make assumptions on people and groups based on the worst case but actually we have more that unites us than separates us and if we only worked together we would be stronger than apart.

What is a female body?

Ooooh, you got me. What a difficult question.

Oh wait no it's not. At least it hasn't been a difficult question over millenia when people were deciding who to murder at birth, who to deny an education to, deny an abortion to, to deny the vote to, to deny maternity rights to, to deny promotion to, to rape and sexually assault.

Men have never had difficult figuring out who are the men and who are the women. Until now when it just all becomes oh so tricky.

I’m still not clear what the alternative definition to ‘adult human female’ is?

You clearly don't want a discussion, you just want to waste time arguing about something that doesn't matter.

If you want to see it, look.

Well, I’ve looked and I can’t see it. You asked me yesterday to provide a link to another thread discussing transmen accessing female space. I did this without hesitation or complaint.

Please would you provide the link to where in this thread the definition of woman is given by the pp?

Top two on twitter search for 'transgirls'

Several screens down, man in lingerie masturbating. Obviously can't post that.

You can't define things by experience so why are we imposing that stipulation onto trans women? People saying how can a man live as a woman? I don't know. How do women live as women?

You’re right that we can’t define woman or man by experience alone ( other words are defined by experience ). I agree that the phrase ‘living as a woman’ is problematic and that’s why it’s really frustrating that the government and some organisations use this phrase. To exist as a woman is drastically different, to deny this is to deny patriarchy & biology. The fact some females have disorders which prevent normal biological experiences, is a poor argument. It also weaponises women’s health issues, which as someone who has suffered from multiple women’s health issues men cannot endure, I find incredibly insulting and misogynistic.

The correct phrase would be: how can a man be a woman. Answer: he never can be.

I’m finding it utterly pointless to argue about something that’s an observable material fact. Why do we argue when most sane people understand perfectly well that humans cannot change sex, cannot be born in the wrong body. Those claiming that statement is ‘transphobic’ falsely state not to adopt their beliefs constitutes a ‘phobia’. We know it doesn’t.

Which means what? That will mean different things to different women

This is deliberately obtuse. ALL that is required to define “living as a woman” is existing as an adult human female. That’s the point.

A body of the one of two sexes of adult humans, of the sex that produces non-motile gametes.

But how does that inform experience of living as woman? How can we define living as a woman, as women?

What is a female body?

This question is disingenuous and silly.

Thank you AnyOldPrion

So DecomposingComposers we have already had the discussion about why the 'denoting' in that definition isn't the gotcha that people think it is. So I reject whatever she was saying based on that and am waiting for an aruument back.

Anyway...

You can’t. Women can’t define living as a woman, and they’re actual women, so how can trans women claim THEY can say they’re living as a woman?

This is deliberately obtuse. ALL that is required to define “living as a woman” is existing as an adult human female. That’s the point.

Which is my point. Living as an adult human female has no definition. So a trans woman can live as an adult human female. Why do we demand an answer to "how does a man live as a woman" when we cannot explain what to live as a woman means?

Fairenuff, totally agree.

Do you think that

oh god I still have to bleach my brain after looking At the hashtag #transgirls on twitter

Is transphobic ?

What is a female body?

Lol.

Rapists can always tell but you can't?

Men can always tell which one of them and their wives/partners is more likely to gestate their child. And who is more likely to give up work and care for their child. And which parent is likely to be called by the school when the child is ill.

How on earth can they tell?

Do you think men sit there pondering what an adult human male body is?

The oppression that woman face is down to our biology, yes, but ultimately it is down to an assumption of our biology based on appearance.

No, everyone can identify males and females easily almost all of the time. We are oppressed based on our biology as women, using gender stereotypes to push the message women are inferior and worth less. Transwomen will never experience this.

So you believe that the rapist Karen White is a woman? On what basis do you believe this?

On the same basis I would consider any transwoman a woman. I do not think Karen White's transgender identity, such as it is, is particularly relevant and I think both sides of the debate agree that her case was handled poorly. Karen White should no more have been allowed to roam freely in a women's prison than any woman who had committed repeated sexual assault against women. I myself was sexually abused by a woman as a young girl, and would want her kept away from me and other women also. Being a transwoman of course does not prevent a person from having severe mental health problems, psychopathic tendencies and being a danger to those around them.

*A body of the one of two sexes of adult humans, of the sex that produces non-motile gametes.

But how does that inform experience of living as woman? How can we define living as a woman, as women?*

Living as a woman = being alive + being of the sex that produces non-motile gametes.

Living as an adult human female has no definition.

No. But adult human female does: female is very clearly defined and you’re just being really odd and silly to suggest it isn’t definable.

All this handwringing about who is a man and who is a woman. Just around the time when women in the UK are actually making some headway with their rights.

It's.... Interesting isn't it?

On the same basis I would consider any transwoman a woman

Which is what exactly?