To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?

[thetonsillolith]

I am fully supportive of the LGBTQ community and don't feel it is my position to question or undermine those who believe they were born in the wrong body.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing. Probably because I'm worried about being shouted down.

This is part of the problem isn't it? I should speak up.

Does anybody else feel like this or is it just me?

awaits tumbleweed*

There's no transphobia on here. Plenty from TRAs though - the way the treat Miranda Yardley, Kristina Harrison et al is absolutely disgraceful. Do you speak up against TRAs calling Transsexuals 'truscum' and telling them to 'die in a fire' OP?

If biology doesn't matter, why do you think we have sex segregated spaces in the first place. Why do you think women campaigned for them and it was enshrined in law?

If we agree that biology does matter why are some people campaigning to have those sex segregations removed?

I don't understand the logic.

Women absolutely can and do rape, and I have firsthand experience of it

Not according to the law, unless you are counting transwomen as women. Rape is defined as penetration by a penis. Natal women can commit sexual assault, but not rape.

As for Karen White, KW identifies as a woman. According to TRAs and their allies, all it takes to be a woman is to say you are one and they should be accepted as such.

For the same people to then turn around and say, “KW isn’t a woman because they have committed rape”, makes no sense and is, I think very suspect.

The trans movement argument is that trans women are every bit as female as cis/natal women. Do we tell natal women that they are no longer women when they commit heinous offences, including sexual offences? If not, why should we say such a thing of a trans woman?

The logical consequence of the self ID and “transwomen are just as much women as natal women” argument is that Karen White IS a woman, just as they say they are. You can’t get to decide thereafter that they are not a woman just because they did something bad.

Either Karen White is not a woman, as GC people would say.

Or she is a woman. And whatever crimes she commits thereafter have no bearing on the matter. Otherwise we have a completely new definition of “woman” - a woman is someone who says they’re a woman and doesn’t commit crime/sexual offences thereafter.

Fyette

I hope you understand I’m not telling you to be quiet or disbelieving you were abused or assaulted. But in law, rape is defined in such a way only a man can. That matters when it comes to discussing whether or not rapists who are transwomen should be in women’s prisons. In no way would I suggest to you or anyone, that they should not talk about their experience of sexual assault. It is important however, that we assess risk when dealing with places like prisons, where women are confined 24/7 and who they’re confined with matters. The fact is, almost all sexual assaults are by men.

The vast majority of all sexual assaults are committed by males, over 90%.

It's actually 98%. I think this is worth saying whenever it's relevant.

I have seen the definition we are talking about, I have rejected it, giving my reasons why and no one was come back with a counter argument. So, my current stance is that that definition is unsatisfactory.

And that is your prerogative isn't it? I don't agree with other definitions given on here.

Ruffle OP did a bun and run.

what is a female body?

for fuck sake

However, I believe this is because those who are driving the current aggressive agenda are not typical of many transsexual or transgender people. But they are the ones shouting loudest and they appear to have more power than would normally be expected ofa group that is genuinely oppressed.

This is a good point. Absolutely “not all transwomen are like this” and women like me who are socialised to be empathetic and kind struggled at first to see why transwomen - many of whom had suffered their own oppression and prejudices - could be a threat. Probably most transwomen aren’t, not at all. But the TRAs are a violent, misogynistic bunch and their agenda is neither kind nor empathetic to women.

Didn't you know it is only women that allowed to be victims lol

Re "all the people I know in real life" - this is an incredibly weak argument, because typically we all tend to form friendship groups with like-minded people, or (if we have a choice about what we do for a living) pick jobs which suit our interests and hence mix with more like-minded people, or go to churches/hobby groups/sports clubs filled with people who share our interests, and hence mix with even more like-minded people.

It's why "bubbles" aren't just an internet phenomenon, and why you get groups of Labour voters in Islington completely unable to even comprehend why a group of Labour voters in Darlington might have voted for Brexit, or a group of Conservative voters in the rural shires might be completely unable to comprehend why a group of Tory voters in Surbiton might oppose fox hunting.

Which is why reputable survey firms go to such lengths to try to get representative samples of the population as a whole. And why much to Pink News' embarrassment, the survey they themselves commissioned showed well over 80% of the British population opposed unfettered self ID.

Shame on you, those arguing about the legal semantics of @Fyette being raped by a woman. How you can hear someone say that and then spout back at them about what is in the law, in the name of winning and argument. Really shameful and lacking humanity. Fyette, I hope you are able to ignore these comments, although I know I’d struggle to do so. Makes me feel very sad.

I was trying to point out that our demand for trans women to explain their experience by asking them to explain what it is to live as a woman actually makes no sense because their is no way to define living as a woman.

You have this the wrong way round. Men TELL women they should have access to women’s spaces because “they live as a woman” and women quite rightly want them to then define what that means and explain why that means they should have access to that space.

If trans women didn’t ask for access to single-sex women’s spaces, they wouldn’t get asked what “living as a woman” means.

Do you think single-sex spaces are important Decomposing? Why do we have them, currently?

It's actually 98%. I think this is worth saying whenever it's relevant.

It won't be relevant for much longer if crime stats are going to be determined by self id not sex. I predict a sharp increase in the number of violent and sexual crimes recorded by women.

And that is your prerogative isn't it? I don't agree with other definitions given on here.

Could you lay out what your issues are with the definition of 'adult human female' please?

Shame on you, those arguing about the legal semantics

We are discussing prisons and who should be in the women’s prisons, so legal definitions are relevant to the conversation. If you can’t see that either you’re deliberately misrepresenting or not paying attention.

I did not say a transwoman is the same as a woman who has had a hysterectomy. I used this as an example of someone who is clearly a woman but who would have a very different experience of being a woman to me. The uterus = woman argument can be quite pernicious. Last year I had 3 miscarriages and struggled with feelings of not being a 'real' woman because I was struggling to make a baby.

Transwomen who live as women share virtually every experience with me. They have to deal with feeling vulnerable walking home, dismissed in meetings, objectified by some men (trans is one of the most popular categories on pornhub). If you live as a woman, you deal with what a woman deals with.

Your post where you asked me personally to provide you with a link. I also gave you the name of the poster that had linked it.

I’m asking you for a link to the actual post. I haven’t been able to find it. And umpteen posts on, I have no idea what page the post you’re referring to was on.

that I was immediately helpful in providing you with a link yesterday rather than simply telling you to off and advance search it, I see no reason why you won’t provide me with a link. However, lesson learned the next time you ask anyone for a link on something.

No one has “spouted back”. Flowers have been offered, acceptance of personal experience has been acknowledged, and the importance of legals have been made.

tonsilloth i've never seen anyne here saying they reject the idea someone 'feels they were born in the wrong body'.

People feel the earth is flat. People who weigh 4 stone believe they are obese.

I can observe your belief as sincerely held but I reserve the right to trust my own judgement as to whether i personally agree your belief is correct or not. We can agree to disagree.

However, if your beliefs lead to actions which infringe the legally enshrined rights of protected groups you can expect me to defend those rights robustly.

As regards sex segregated nspaces - I asked this yesterday and no one answered. If you succeed in maintaining segregation based on sex how will the issue of trans men be dealt with?

If a woman cannot be around men in certain circumstances - be it because of religion, past trauma or choice- how does the inclusion of trans men in female spaces accommodate those women?

So a trans man could perform an intimate medical exam when the patient has requested a female HCP. A trans man could be on a female ward, be in a female changing room. Outwardly appearing exactly like a man.

How can that be overcome? Or will you have a law that demands sex segregation apart from trans men who will be determined to be men?

There's no transphobia on here
Ooookay

Plenty from TRAs though - the way the treat Miranda Yardley, Kristina Harrison et al is absolutely disgraceful. Do you speak up against TRAs calling Transsexuals 'truscum' and telling them to 'die in a fire' OP?

Course I bloody would (yes, I know I'm not the OP, but just saying I definitely would if I saw that on here and I'm sure others would too as that's disgusting)

If you succeed in maintaining segregation based on sex how will the issue of trans men be dealt with?

What do you mean? If they want another space, I’d happily help campaign for it. As females, they’re entitled to use female spaces. I personally hate the typical way we design changing rooms as it stands.

@JessicaWakefieldSV, I don’t care if it was ‘relevant to the conversation’ FFS. Would you actually speak to someone like that in real life if they told you they had been raped? So ironic that these kinds of things are being said in the name of feminism.

Outwardly appearing exactly like a man they don’t though.