To put up and shut up with the transphobia on here?

[thetonsillolith]

I am fully supportive of the LGBTQ community and don't feel it is my position to question or undermine those who believe they were born in the wrong body.

And yet i see literally hundreds of intolerant posts on here and say nothing. Probably because I'm worried about being shouted down.

This is part of the problem isn't it? I should speak up.

Does anybody else feel like this or is it just me?

awaits tumbleweed*

Do you think that

oh god I still have to bleach my brain after looking At the hashtag #transgirls on twitter

Is transphobic ?

In my opinion, not transphobic, no. It's saying that they didn't like the images. It is a saying that can be and is used for any image that you don't like. I think they are referring to the sexual element, not the fact that they are trans. So if the same models were just sat in a café wearing regular clothes they would not say they need brain bleach.

If you woke up tomorrow and your consciousness had been downloaded into a male body, would you be a man? Feel like a man? Immediately understand that you simply were not a woman, because the only thing that was determinative of that was your biological makeup?

Sigh.

I want my laws to be based on the actual real world, not on one of Heinlein's (weaker, IMO) novels.

No-one on this thread is ever going to find their brain downloaded into an opposite sex body.

It's all about the practical consequences of legal changes in the real world.

Almost all of us do really, in the actual world, go for smear tests and most (not all of us) feel more comfortable having that carried out by an HCP of the same sex (sex, not subjectively felt gender). Do we have the right to bodily autonomy and a degree of choice over who examines our genitals, or must we cede this lest we be struck off a GP's list for being transphobic?

Many of us will need to access rape crisis or DV shelters. Do we have the right to seek out provision which is same sex if we find that male bodied individuals are triggering, or are all same-sex only centres going to be forced to shut under the guise of inclusion?

Some of us will even commit crimes worthy of a custodial sentence. Will we have the right only to be forced to share a cell with a female bodied individual, or may we find ourselves in future banged up with an individual with a penis?

Some of us will want to play contact sports. Will we be able to play this in the knowledge that the risk of spinal injury, while not absent, is low, because we'll only be playing against individuals with roughly the same physique and physical strength as ourselves, or will we be forced to play against individuals considerably stronger and heavier or give up the game we love?

Those are the sort of practical, real world consequences I want addressed. With practical, real world solutions. Not science fiction crap about brains being downloaded into the wrong body.

Who knows what the human genome will reveal furtherbdiwn the line.

Who knows.

Do you think it will stop men assaulting, raping and murdering women tho?

The search criteria are there in the top left. Perhaps you have safe search switched on?

I must have “kids cartoons” switched on.

Karen White is a man who raped women with his penis. Women do not rape. Sexual assaults be females are rare, the threat is not the same. I find your comments really objectionable tbh

Women absolutely can and do rape, and I have firsthand experience of it. I have also experienced before that sharing that gets me accused of diluting the message, and that is something I find really problematic. Survivors like myself are left with nowhere to turn to, and are frequently disbelieved or told to stay quiet. But anyway, that is not the point of this thread.

I think that a lot of what society sees as being female is down to appearance and what someone looks like on the outside

Absolutely. We have many physical characteristics which help identify us as female. Not clothes or make up, actual physical differences.

But anyway, that is not the point of this thread

No you were just going to explain the basis upon which you believe men when they say they are not really men but women.

'If you woke up tomorrow and your consciousness had been downloaded into a male body, would you be a man? Feel like a man? Immediately understand that you simply were not a woman, because the only thing that was determinative of that was your biological makeup?'

But I would have had the experience of being a woman in this scenario. The periods, pregnancy, the childbirth. The social conditioning to make me seem less important than a man, make my voice unheard, be reduced to a body at times. Had I always been in a mans body I wouldn't have experienced any of that, and would be a man still.

Fyette.

It does remain a statistical fact, however, that 99% of sexual crimes in the UK are committed by men. We have single sex spaces for a reason - because although it doesn't remove the risk entirely (as your experience shows), it lowers the risk by a couple of orders of magnitude.

You realise I’ve posted multiple posts on this thread? Which post? Which page? What time?

I consider it pretty bad etiquette in a poster to ask other posters to provide them with links but not be willing to do the same themselves.

Your post where you asked me personally to provide you with a link. I also gave you the name of the poster that had linked it.

And it is slightly different in that yesterday you referred to another thread and I asked for a link to another thread not to a post within the thread that we were on, which was literally only 3 pages back.

Women absolutely can and do rape, and I have firsthand experience of it

In law, you need a penis to rape.
The vast majority of all sexual assaults are committed by males, over 90%. Its crazy to raise the rare instances of female sex assaults in a conversation around rapists in women’s prisons. Apart from having a penis, men are also on average much stronger, this adds another risk factor.

If you woke up tomorrow and your consciousness had been downloaded into a male body, would you be a man? Feel like a man? Immediately understand that you simply were not a woman, because the only thing that was determinative of that was your biological makeup?

Actually I think I would. There is nothing I do in my life that fits the stereotypical female. The only thing that would be materially different in my life would of course be my relationship with my husband. I suspect we would separate and remain friends. Or live together as friends. I would not expect him to 'learn to cope' with penis or to call himself gay.

Decomposing composers, do you not think it's a tad misogynistic to come on a female dominated forum to argue that women don't actually exist and our biology doesn't matter?

To be honest, most people I know who aren't part of the whole "Adult Human Female" feminist chat take on trans issues no longer use Mumsnet. The descriptions of trans people I read about here bear absolutely no relation whatsoever to any of the trans people I know in real life - it's like reading about a completely different world.

Why did I use she/he?

Because I don’t know the sex of the poster. No more, no less. It’s unclear from the posts I read.

I want my laws to be based on the actual real world, not on one of Heinlein's (weaker, IMO) novels.

This!

The 'what if you woke up tomorrow in a male body' thing is getting so tired now.

It's not in other threads and it's not lost in this massive thread. It's back maybe a couple of pages. If you missed it or won't look back that is your problem. It's not up to anyone else to look back for you. It is there. Posted within the last hour or so, not hurried deep 20 odd pages ago.You clearly don't want a discussion, you just want to waste time arguing about something that doesn't matter.If you want to see it, look

Well said, exactly - even when people do post you get "but I can't see anything" or "well that's bollocks"
It's pointless saying anything else apart from I'm a woman because I have a fanny that's it

Re. legal definition of rape. I respect your choice to see your experience as rape, Fyette - I'm sure I would feel exactly the same way.

But Jessica is right about the legal definition of rape in the UK (different in other jurisdictions, and there is a whole separate conversation to be had about whether it's morally right or not to separate out penetration using a penis from penetration using fingers/objects). What this means is that when you see a headline of the "Woman rapist on the run..." variety, above an article about "Freda Bloggs, wanted on 3 counts of rape", you know that Freda Bloggs has a penis, despite the name Freda.

And it is around the 99% mark for male sex offenders versus female sex offenders - the official statistics are readily searchable on the prisons website.

To be honest, most people I know who aren't part of the whole "Adult Human Female" feminist chat take on trans issues no longer use Mumsnet.

Do you not see the irony of your statement? MUMSnetters who don't believe in WOMEN as a concept?

The descriptions of trans people I read about here bear absolutely no relation whatsoever to any of the trans people I know in real life - it's like reading about a completely different world.

I suspect this is part of the problem Broomstick. I have the same problem. However, I believe this is because those who are driving the current aggressive agenda are not typical of many transsexual or transgender people. But they are the ones shouting loudest and they appear to have more power than would normally be expected ofa group that is genuinely oppressed.

The descriptions of trans people I read about here bear absolutely no relation whatsoever to any of the trans people I know in real life - it's like reading about a completely different world.

And many trans people condemn the actions of vocal TRAs. But the law and changes to it needs to encompass ALL those under Stonewall’s “trans umbrella”. That means those who many consider unsavoury need to be factored in. This is the whole point. NO ONE is saying that all trans people are a problem, but there are men under that umbrella who are, and changes to laws, definitions and boundaries can’t exclude them according to Stonewall.

To be honest, most people I know who aren't part of the whole "Adult Human Female" feminist chat take on trans issues no longer use Mumsnet. The descriptions of trans people I read about here bear absolutely no relation whatsoever to any of the trans people I know in real life - it's like reading about a completely different

In real life people think I am woke. The only people who know my concerns are my husband, ds and dd. Oh and my mp. Everyone else thinks I'm happy having my female spaces and safeguarding removed. No-one knows I post on mumsnet. It's dangerous to air your true views in these woke times. Just saying.

AnyOldPrion

So do you do that with every poster then? Do you always use he/she?

Decomposing composers, do you not think it's a tad misogynistic to come on a female dominated forum to argue that women don't actually exist and our biology doesn't matter?

Where have I said that women don't actually exist or that our biology doesn't matter? Only, I most definitely haven't said that women don't exist and my point about biology is that I don't think that it is all that matters. I certainly don't think that biology is what defines a person or their experience of life.

I was trying to point out that our demand for trans women to explain their experience by asking them to explain what it is to live as a woman actually makes no sense because their is no way to define living as a woman.

That's not the same as saying that women don't exist.

What a nasty comment jessica.

If you want to see it, look

I have seen the definition we are talking about, I have rejected it, giving my reasons why and no one was come back with a counter argument. So, my current stance is that that definition is unsatisfactory.