Transgender relative, don't know where to start...

[NameChangerAmI]

Deliberately haven't posted in feminism, and don't want any haters, please.

Someone in my family (we are quite close, I love this person very much,) is trans (male to female transition).

We were having a conversation the other week, in which it was stated, as a fact, that this person has always been a girl/woman, and was just born in the wrong body.

I don't agree that either this person has ever been a "girl/woman" or ever will be a woman. I respect diversity more than many, but really wanted to say, "transwoman, not woman," but just felt that it was too controversial and goady.

I'm not very up to date with all trans issues and terminology. I think if I disagree about anything else, we would have a reasoned discussion and agree to disagree, but I know from previous comments and discussions that if I state my case, I'll be seen as wrong, not understanding, being ignorant, etc, and the problem will lie with me.

Not sure what I'm asking, but wanted to hear wide ranging views.

Would you just let it go, or approach it next time this issue comes up in conversation?

Having trouble finding actual data but there is an interesting part in this article talking about how the trans suicide rate is still 16 times higher than the rest of the pop.

www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence

I dont care if you want me to call you he or she, but I'm not remembering 80 and counting made up ones.

BottleOfJameson

When you speak to your relative what do you hope to achieve when questioning the terminology you use. If you say "no transwoman" what will you have achieved?

I'm not sure tbh. It just seems dishonest almost, that I'm sitting there nodding my head when my relative says it, and states it as a fact and a truth. I would appreciate the ability to feel that I can be honest about my feelings, as much as she can and is about hers.

It seems so one sided, an assumption that she is right, and that my truths are invalid and based on ignorance, and a lack of understanding.

I feel like I own the right to call myself a woman. I know it must be excruciatingly difficult to be a trans woman, I cannot imagine what it's like to be a trans woman, so I would never claim that I do.

Similarly, a trans woman cannot know what it's like to be a woman, and is not a woman, so I feel that the term trans is an important prefix that not should be ignored or shrugged off or erased in this context.

Does that make me prejudiced and a bigot? Someone up thread accused me of being so.

I think you could say, 'We have different opinions on this and I don't want to get into it with you so lets just agree to not talk about it.' If they don't respect that then it's ok for you to walk away.

Namechange, in this case what do you need to tell her your truth for. There are many people who for me the truth is that someone may be a dickhead, saying they are however rarely helps either side. There are lots of truths we keep to ourselves.

No it doesn't make prejudiced or a bigot. Just because some people like to throw those words at you doesn't mean it's true. It's another way of trying to silence you and make you deny your own valid feelings.

Trebe I wonder if all the hormones contribute to this. God knows what the side effects of those are. Obviously I'm not suggesting hormones are exclusively to blame, but they do worry me.

Does anyone know how long the hormone treatment lasts? Is it a life long thing?

Also I dont think that makes you a bigot. You're not being prejudiced about here, you just have a disagreement of opinion on what they you wish to call them and believe them to be. However I dont see the need to tell her your truth, what does it matter and more importantly what does it help. I'd argue it only hinders.

Trebe that's a good point and made me laugh. I too keep those sort of opinions to myself.

Usually its a life long treatment and yes we don't know anywhere near enough about long term hormone use. Let alone puberty blockers in 8 year olds.

DRelative is not a narcissist, but has always struggled to recognise when she is dominating the conversation, and has no awareness when the other person has tired, or become uncomfortable with the conversation, which is invariably about her, and her feelings and opinions.

Well I didn't say they were a narcissist, I said they leaned towards narcissism. There's a distinction between having an actual personality disorder and having "tendencies", which to be fair I did not explicitly state. You know them best, (although the person in my family who is autistic and has poor conversational awareness talks obsessively about a subject -jet engines, the civil war, never about themselves), however it may be a manifestation of your family members neurodiversity as opposed to a personality quirk - I take that on board.

I genuinely think this is something that she cannot help.

That's as maybe but it is neither required nor helpful for you to participate in it beyond what is comfortable for you. If they struggle with social cues then clear uniquivacable cues are a kindness "I've enjoyed talking about that with you but I would like to talk about something else now. What do you think about...x" etc is the kindest thing you could do.

No, but bear in mind they're looking for validation right now. If there's a fight to be had, they'll fight it hard.

In a way, it's not entirely their fault: society has lied and said they're now a woman, 100% female, as much as any actual biological woman, and they've taken it literally - not as a message of acceptance or support.

I'd just focus on keeping family peace and trying really, really hard not to say anything to them or their parents.

They could easily detransition in a while after all the attention and feeling like they've found a reason for being the way they are has faded, and maybe you could talk to them then. You're not going to convince them in the meantime though, just cause a fight.

The Equality Act does not protect self ID

Not in so many words and not if you're thinking of self-ID only in the narrow sense of the proposed GRA reforms.

However, there's no practical difference between self-ID in the wider sense and 'proposing to undergo a process ...' because the process doesn't need to be medical - it's deliberately left vague. 'I'm trans' / 'I identify as a woman' / 'Call me Ma'am' - any of these statements from a self-ID tw would be enough for them to have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. They would then be protected from discrimination so they couldn't for example be sacked or evicted because they were trans.

It doesn't mean they must legally be treated the same as a woman (or as a man for tm). There is case law which establishes that in a discrimination case the comparator is someone of the same sex who does not have the PC of gender reassignment (so for a self-ID tw the comparator would be a man).Only for tw with a GRC, who are therefore legally female, would the comparator be a woman and there are numerous exceptions in both the EA and GRA because tw are not actually women (and because tm must not be allowed to inherit hereditary peerages meant for proper men but that's another thread).

Yes, I've come full circle - back to my thinking after the first few posts: that I should just let it be. The potential fall out isn't worth the risk.

Sorry OP the EA is not relevant and is a derailment.

Given how young your relative is and given that they have asd I would be quite worried about them because hormones can cause permanent changes, and obviously surgery does. Decisions made now can affect future fertility and sexual function and can also cause wider health issues.

Are you in touch with your relative's parents? What's their take?

(sorry if you've already answered this and I missed it)

A parallel - I'd think of it as a little bit like religion. Frankly, I regard religion as a mental health problem! It ticks many of the boxes of various conditions. I certainly don't think the beliefs are objectively true. And although right now I'm being frank, honest (and to some people highly offensive) to strangers on the internet, I don't say this to religious people I know and care about in the real world. If religion is deeply ingrained in their life I do think they are delusional, but I don't want to upset them, so I avoid challenging them and remain vague (although they know I'm an atheist!).

If anyone here can say that they had any idea enough about the world to make a decision that won't only change the entirety of their life, it can also define there life. So to ask kids as young as eight to decide their future based on the limited knowledge, inability to have practically any wisdom and no experience to understand the decisions they're making on long term decisions. Some of it is tantamount to child neglect.

I'm positive there are kids out there who identify with the opposite gender, but no parent should be letting 8 year olds take puberty blockers. I genuinely wanted to be a wizard at 8 and I was allowed to play as a wizard. However me telling them a wizard at 8 is irrelevant to a discussion of whether my parents should have accepted that I am. I was 8. Even in my teen years I thought I was as smart as they come and would be a millionaire by 15. How many people want to do what they did at 15.

I'm not denying transgender people, I am saying when it comes to children, these things need to be discussed without someone shouting 'that's transphobic' simply because of a difference of opinion.

I would quietly disengage from the person and walk away. I'm too old and tired to be playing along with other people's issues and I'm unprepared to play a part in their validation act.

I don't know if you have children, OP, but I do and for that reason I'd be all the more unwilling to act as if I'm in agreement with the person's beliefs. I don't want an untruth presented as fact to children. If you have children of your own you might feel the need to consider the impact that your decision would have on them. This doesn't necessarily mean that you would take the view that I do, you might think that you'd rather model acceptance. It's a difficult position to be in and needs careful consideration.

I’d be inclined to ask them how exactly they “feel like a woman”. Because I don’t feel like one. Does that mean I’m genderfree?

I’d actually be very interested in the response. As i have no idea what it means when someone says they’re trapped in the wrong body. How? Why?

Maybe they have the right body and its the brain that needs adjusting to feel more male?

Why do they believe in female/male brains?

Then I’d butt out and say the science doesn’t support gendered brain. It’s society. But hey, if you want to adopt female stereotypes crack on.

If you cant be supportive , keep your mouth shut
This.

Except if they want to make you agree to their perception that they are actually are a woman or to support any actions they want to take that put women in danger or at a disadvantage, if you don't agree. I don't think its a good thing to lie, but that doesn't mean you have to volunteer that you don't agree unless you think they might put women in danger.

If it has to be a topic of conversation I'd be inclined to present the question as, "Why don't you feel you're a man?"

You're on firmer ground talking about the male stereotypes they want to escape, because that really will involve their lived experience.

Wasn"t there a good book that came out recently debunking male/female brain? "The Gendered Brain" or similar title. Thinking of ordering it.