Transgender relative, don't know where to start...

[NameChangerAmI]

Deliberately haven't posted in feminism, and don't want any haters, please.

Someone in my family (we are quite close, I love this person very much,) is trans (male to female transition).

We were having a conversation the other week, in which it was stated, as a fact, that this person has always been a girl/woman, and was just born in the wrong body.

I don't agree that either this person has ever been a "girl/woman" or ever will be a woman. I respect diversity more than many, but really wanted to say, "transwoman, not woman," but just felt that it was too controversial and goady.

I'm not very up to date with all trans issues and terminology. I think if I disagree about anything else, we would have a reasoned discussion and agree to disagree, but I know from previous comments and discussions that if I state my case, I'll be seen as wrong, not understanding, being ignorant, etc, and the problem will lie with me.

Not sure what I'm asking, but wanted to hear wide ranging views.

Would you just let it go, or approach it next time this issue comes up in conversation?

On the first page of this thread, OP said:

Trouble is, whenever we get together, it all becomes about her transgender journey - I get that it's all consuming to live it, but it seems to be at the exclusion of everyone and everything else.

Stop telling her to avoid the topic. She's said from the get-go this isn't an option.

I’d cut down on contact or drift away if you feel you can’t say no to the flood of dialogue - this seems to be in the category of “needy person with poor social skills who is impacting negatively on your MH” .

Meet up in a group only and make up some excuse like you’ve found Jesus or you’re building an extension and can’t answer messages

You don’t need an excuse to put yourself first and you’re not obliged to be someone’s support worker or counsellor.

The trans stuff is almost a red herring - if it was a biological female relative or friend who was something of a fantasist and droned on and on and tried to force you to agree with her you’d be in the same position?

Just because someone is unhappy with themselves doesn’t mean they are entitled to unconditional support
and can’t be a bully.

I think trying to “win” a debate with someone like this is pointless - you’ll simply be feeding their internal narrative that they are some oppressed victim rejected by cruel judgemental heterosexual people (and compare it to racism in their head ).

So the best thing to do would be damage limitation and put your own emotions first. Detach if you can.

Kiwi no it isn't so much of a problem that I want to distance myself from this person, far from it. I am happy to support, and don't see it as you have described. But you must see it as that way, from my posts, maybe?

To people who have suggested steering the conversation - thank you. It's so obvious when I read that, but up to now, I don't think I've done this, just sat through it thinking ...she's on a roll, she obviously needs to get it off her chest, so I'll just sit here and listen.

You've all been really helpful, even the posters I don't agree with, in giving me an insight into how others would feel and deal with it.

I will listen and then steer when it all gets a bit much next time, and won't challenge her on her belief that she has always been a woman unless it's necessary and appropriate, and without being extremely diplomatic, but hopefully, I won't need to, as she almost certainly won't ever ask me my opinion on this, so I'll keep quiet.

Kathleen Stock on What is a Woman?
'What is a woman?' no longer seems a straightforward question. The philosopher Kathleen Stock discusses the category of 'woman' and how we think about it in conversation with David Edmonds in this episode of the Philosophy Bites podcast series. This is a contentious topic. The interview includes discussion of genitalia.
philosophybites.com/
and essay
quillette.com/2019/04/11/ignoring-differences-between-men-and-women-is-the-wrong-way-to-address-gender-dysphoria/

Well, she's more of an expert on the subject than you, as it's her lived experience, and she'll have done a ton of research on the subject, so maybe ask her to send you some information to read and digest.

RiversDisguise is the book you're think of: 'Delusions of Gender' by Cordelia Fine. It's brilliant.

sure, just join the cult and then you'll be okay.

I don't think anyone who believes this stuff wholeheartedly is an expert. They're fundamentally being deluded and allowing themselves to be deluded into realms of wishful thinking - a lot of which is built on Tumblr daydreams and fantasies, rather than anything like science or actual equal rights.

The way that transgender activists have turned on actual transsexuals should tell you everything you need to know about their "expertise".

but hopefully, I won't need to, as she almost certainly won't ever ask me my opinion on this, so I'll keep quiet.

That piece of information is very important, I believe.

If you're not expected to validate your relative, by agreeing, or offering an approved opinion, then you might well be absolutely fine.

If they take cross sex hormones, and you know about it rendering them infertile, and you are fond of them, you might start to feel a little bit more conflicted, though.

In the meantime, hopefully it won't be too much of a minefield, and is something that you can, as you say, steer around.

You haven't mentioned that your prior relationship with this person has been difficult, or without mutual respect, so hopefully, again, it will continue.

Most people seem to be offering you quite sensible, down-to-earth advice.

Not sure what I'm asking, but wanted to hear wide ranging views.
On trans issues on MN? Sure, that’s going to happen. You clearly know enough not to post in the feminism board, you think nobody there reads AIBU?

In your shoes I'd start with a bit of education in the matter, then you wont be controversial and goady.
Yep. This.

As for advice. Say nothing. No good will come of it.

Ooh, thanks, @dorisdog, will look that up now.

I'd say I'm learning on the job - by talking to and listening to, and respecting my relative's opinions.

Yabbers Personally I don't think I need to educate myself as such - there is lots I don't know, but I'm not going to trail through hours of research on the internet in order to converse with a family member, there's so much hype and propaganda to plough through anyway, and I don't have the time.

I don't know if you're still reading these messages, there are so many! but I must admit I agree more with your relative - my understanding of the science (and I may not be up to date) is that feeling that you are a man or woman is a matter of brain chemistry and so in that sense she HAS always felt/been a woman. There are wider issues to do with social/gender/politics etc but you should be sensitive about how and when to have those discussions.
I would also think it's ok for you to tell her you don't want to talk about her all the time (sensitively!)

No. There are no male and female brains - just brains that belong to males and females. The studies that have tried to prove otherwise have had small sample sizes and haven't taken into account things like autism.

Autistic^^ people often struggle with gender roles (because they're nonsense).

my understanding of the science (and I may not be up to date) is that feeling that you are a man or woman is a matter of brain chemistry

What a load of sexist hogwash!

My advice is to be as supportive as you feel able, whilst not being pushed into forfeiting your own boundaries or those of any girls in the family. Continue to speak freely about your own beliefs, and if you disagree, say so. Don't be pressured into denying anything factual or biological, take note if you feel there's any sort of manipulation where you feel obliged to lie about what makes you female, or to go along with something that doesn't feel right, such as pretending women have their minds/psyche/personalities in common, rather than their bodies.

Give it 6 months.

We'll see you on the feminism boards then.

I am still reading all the posts.

Actually, she did bring up the female brain point when I last spoke to her.

(there's no such thing as a female brain. In either sex. Unless we're talking about chromosomes. Which negate all claims of transgenderism.)

Why do you think a lot of men wait till they are married with children to transition?

I think this will happen less and less now that it is so much more socially acceptable, tbh, but time will tell. People who get married and have DCs and then transition are surely much older, and got married and had DCs when people weren't as aware that living as a transgender person was a viable option.

Sort of like priests - at one time, if you thought you might be gay, or knew that you were attracted to the opposite sex, or children, and knew you couldn't happily live in a heterosexual marriage, and were Catholic, the priesthood might have seemed like a very viable option.

I'm not suggesting this is the case for all priests, far from it, but there's surely no coincidence that there is a chronic shortage of Catholic priests these days.

My child is transgender. It's not a choice, it's a difficult thing to navigate which consumes all aspects of life. It always needs to be considered in all decisions, often because of other people's prejudices.

Thank you for being supportive of your relative OP. You came here willing to learn and that matters. It will mean a lot to them.

How old is your child, BanginChoons?

RiversDisguise, my child is 14.

Poor kiddo.