Transgender relative, don't know where to start...

[NameChangerAmI]

Deliberately haven't posted in feminism, and don't want any haters, please.

Someone in my family (we are quite close, I love this person very much,) is trans (male to female transition).

We were having a conversation the other week, in which it was stated, as a fact, that this person has always been a girl/woman, and was just born in the wrong body.

I don't agree that either this person has ever been a "girl/woman" or ever will be a woman. I respect diversity more than many, but really wanted to say, "transwoman, not woman," but just felt that it was too controversial and goady.

I'm not very up to date with all trans issues and terminology. I think if I disagree about anything else, we would have a reasoned discussion and agree to disagree, but I know from previous comments and discussions that if I state my case, I'll be seen as wrong, not understanding, being ignorant, etc, and the problem will lie with me.

Not sure what I'm asking, but wanted to hear wide ranging views.

Would you just let it go, or approach it next time this issue comes up in conversation?

LangCleg I agree 100%.

But what if they really really really FEEL like a tree?

What if a dangerously thin person really really really FEELS fat? This happens. See anorexia.

What if a human being really really really FEELS like a member of another species? This really happens. See “otherkin”.

What if a white person really really really FEELS black? See Rachel Dolezal.

Either they’re all right and they were born in the wrong bodies or they weren’t.

Don’t you dare mistimber me.

🤣🤣

I'd just treat it as if they'd converted to a new religion, or developed a belief in some shite like astrology or tarot cards. I'd probably tell them I wasn't the best person to discuss it with, and to focus on other things that we had in common. Oh yeah, and don't ever call me cis.

Messy, if a man trans to a woman, and makes the claim they have always been a woman and some would even say they have a female brain. Do you think that makes a good case for nurture and nature within the idea that gender is a social construct. If there is such a thing as a female brain that then goes on to transition surely thats nature and nurture deciding gender. It would seem like why so many women choose to gender identify as women.

There's no such thing as a female brain, soul or essence that can get "trapped" in a male body. That's all bullshit.

There are just humans who hate the stereotypes associated with their sex, or fetishise the opposite sex to a point they want to become them (known as AGP).

I don’t choose to gender identify as a woman. I have no idea what being a woman is supposed to feel like. I feel like me. Sometimes I dress up in heels and makeup. Sometimes I wear jeans and t shirt and no makeup. I like baking and motorbikes and pink and blue and I cry at sad films and I’m brilliant at parking and I’m great at diy.

What gender am I? Am I gender neutral or am I non binary?

Oh wait - I’m a woman because I’m a member of the female sex. Very simple.

There'd be no capitulation from me.

Don’t you dare mistimber me
😂😂😂

They are assigned male at birth but the gender they are born is different and in their mind they have always been women, how is gender a social construct. Am I missing something?

A baby's sex is observed at birth. Do babies feel like a man or a woman? It's more likely that somebody dresses a child in pink or blue, gives them dolls or toy cars, tells then they can or cannot do something because "boys don't cry" or "that's not very ladylike" and the child forms an idea of gender. In a depressingly high number of cases of trans people whose stories i have read online, there has been abuse or an unhappy childhood.

Do you feel like a woman? Do you feel like a man? How would you know you had been born in the wrong body? I don't wear skirts and dresses, I like pink and I prefer to keep my nails short for practical reasons, but I don't feel particularly like a woman or a man in my head; I find the idea that you can "feel like" a sex a bit weird. I just am a woman because of my biology, and it doesn't bother me much that I don't fit a stereotype. I found it sad and worrying that children, teenagers and young adults have had more and more gender stereotyping pushed on them, and now they're coming to the conclusion that if they don't fit a stereotype, they must have been born in the wrong body. As a child, I thought a penis would be far more convenient for peeing I still do ... according to TRA training, my nursery or school teacher would have affirmed my feeling of being trans, and not necessarily told my parents. How fucked up is that?!?! I was never born in the wrong body but I was easily impressionable and could well have been led to believe it. I would have gone on to bind my breasts (dangerous), live a pretty confused life and maybe have dangerous surgery and take hormones without much due dilligence, the long term effects of which are completely unknown.

Gender is a social construct. Sex is a biological fact.

What feeling just said .

Id kind of grey rock or be politely neutral towards the situation.

I've noticed a split between the trans community . One is fairly unnoticeable - as in they tend to be the "just getting on with their lives" type . Hopefully your relative is one of those - socialising will continue as normal and you can talk about the same things

The other (and I think thus) is closet AGP types who want to discuss the way their legs feel in tights or their new sexual experiences in graphic detail or who have elements of attention seeking or exhibitionism as part of their kink (ie fantasizing about being spotted and wolf whistled at) Part of the kink is getting women and others involved .

Also - taking the sexuality out of it -do you have the time and emotional resources to want to help or "celebrate " a middle aged man who wants to go through the teenage girl stage of life ?

Work out what your social boundaries are and stick with them . As an adult woman with my own problems and challenges I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with someone labelling me an "ally" and expecting me to put myself in uncomfortable situations on their behalf - whatever the background of the situation .

Id just have a few banal phrases ready like "as long as you're happy " or "Yes maybe you should find a group for that " and rinse and repeat.

Feelings do not override women's rights. To refuse that sort of encroachment and slander feminists as transphobic is just the latest tool in the arsenal of patriarchal oppression. I am happy for everyone to be afforded equal rights. I also refuse to pander to the vast numbers of dudes indulging their autogynephilic fetish, dressed up as a trans issue. I am close to someone that suffers from gender dysphoria who is as perplexed as I by self-identifying so-called transwomen who vociferously celebrate their lady dicks. Their bullying of Lesbians to force their male genitalia on them is beyond offensive. There is a massive clash of interests within the LGBT movement. The first three are about being sexually attracted to someone. The tiny minority of actual trans people should not be dictating an agenda to the entire movement. The level of emotional bullying and ridiculous propaganda peddled about for example the violence and murder of trans women is grating massively. Any violent crime is abhorrent but every time these statistics get bandied about, it fails to provide the overall number of women killed each year, which is vastly higher. Hysterical titbits about the high number of trans women killed in for example Brazil completely ignore the fact that many of those work in high risk prostitution and among a backdrop of thousands more biological women being killed and disappearing without any justice each year. In fact, even the number of violent crimes committed against the trans population in for example Europe is skewered because of the disproportionally high number of pre-trans women working as escorts with a proportionally higher risk compared to even female escorts due to toxic male sexuality. In the meantime, women continue to get murdered by men and are a mere footnote.

Fleetsum

"Transwomen are transwomen - they are male at a biological level but wish to opt out of the gender expectations of masculinity. That's fine - fully supportive. There is nothing at all wrong with being a transwoman.

Transwomen are not women though. Why pretend otherwise? Why be ashamed of the trans prefix? There is no harm or shame in being trans so own that prefix as a badge of honour."

Tread carefully, but if there is no hate, how can you be hateful? If your relative is allowed an opinion, why are you silenced? When you are not allowed to speak plainly, you are diminished and your relationship with your relative is dishonest.

Just my opinion and mine, Fleetsum

You can be supportive without agreeing. If you don’t want to talk about it just say I wish we could talk about something else

I absolutely would not appreciate being referred to as a cis-woman (not sure if that is how the term that is used, tbh,) or for it to be applied to other women, who were born women.

I do find that offensive, wrongly or rightly. I should be allowed to be referred to as a woman and to be able to refer to my trans relative as a transwoman should the need ever arise.

I don't agree with the assumption that it is normal to talk obsessively and exclusively about one particular subject just because it is at the fore in your life.

I've had four children and even when my youngest was newborn I was still able to converse with others on topics wholly unrelated to babies and my current experiences.

The inability to conduct a conversation that includes the interests and experiences of another person is symptomatic of a personality type that leans towards narcissism. Domination of other people's opinion is symptomatic of a personality that leans towards narcissism.

Whilst I would never condone deliberately goading or using cruel and dismissive language to someone that has a deeply held belief, I do think that if they insist on continually bringing it up then they have to respectfully accept that others may not share their world view. It's called being an adult.

Stating that a person who is transitioning can never hear an opposing view to their own is infantilizing them. Stating that a person who is supporting another who is transitioning cannot express an opposing opinion is oppressing them. Neither lead to a truly respectful and intimate relationship.

The manner by which things are communicated is of course important, but as Langcleg has already so beautifully stated, human relationships are based on mutuality, that you are so fearful of recriminations suggests that that is not the case here. It is for you to decide how much you want to invest in a relationship that asks you to disappear as a full person with autonomous thoughts and feelings - you don't owe anybody that, regardless of the hardships they may be facing.

Grumpelstiltskin - I'm sorry to pull this out, but

m.youtube.com/watch?v=cLiu7B25G4o

Sorry grumpel that wasn't meant to be aimed at you, you actually made some great point. Apologies.

I also think it's important to state that the relatives and friends of people who go through transition shouldn't be ignored or minimised.
When trans men/women are going through the process of hormones and/or surgery and altering their look to match feminine stereotypes, this can often have a devastating effect on relatives. Many of these relatives feel that their feelings must be kept private, so as not to upset the trans relative. A huge number of them feel unable to stay in the relationship or unable to start referring to their Dad as Mum or by a female name. It's very very common for families to split apart.
I get a bit angry when posters on threads like this suggest that the relatives should just accept it and get over it. Just like that. It's not always possible. The "rights" of trans men/women do not trump the rights of their partners/relatives/friends.

KIttens someone asked upthread if this relative is on the spectrum - yes is the answer, and your post had just reminded me that I hadn't answered that question.

DRelative is not a narcissist, but has always struggled to recognise when she is dominating the conversation, and has no awareness when the other person has tired, or become uncomfortable with the conversation, which is invariably about her, and her feelings and opinions.

I genuinely think this is something that she cannot help.

The Equality Act does not protect self ID. It protects those who have or are proposing to undergo "a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."

That's a quote from s7 of the Act, btw.

But those who have posted about it not applying to the circumstances at hand are correct. I was merely replying to an earlier poster. I'm a lawyer so people misinterpreting statutes annoys me.

Transgender people already have massive suicide and attempted suicide rates

Can someone point me to the actual figure please? I read this a lot but have never seen the comparison with the general population.

Some debunked suicide myths.

Not surprised at all to hear they're on the spectrum OP. What are their other special interests? Try bringing those up instead the next time they talk endlessly about this?

someone asked upthread if this relative is on the spectrum - yes is the answer, and your post had just reminded me that I hadn't answered that question.
Now you see this bothers me because I reckon there are plenty of autistic people who don't feel like they're women / men and therefore assume they must be (or are persuaded to feel) trans when actually it's their autism talking and they really feel more like they don't belong to this planet. Add in the likelihood of being non-heterosexual (a greater % of autism have a sexuality that's not hetero) and you've got confusion. There should be so much counselling for autistic people who are talking about being trans.
I'm autistic and gay and I don't feel like I'm particularly identifying as a woman - I prefer men's clothes because they're looser (and have better pockets!), I don't feel like I have anything in common with women generally etc. But I'm not trans. I don't feel like I'm a man in a woman's body. I'm just an autistic lesbian (look, no penis!) stuck in a world where everyone is hung up on fitting in. If I'd been born 20 years later I'd probably be shoved into a trans slot (sorry mum, you thought autistic lesbian was bad enough) and that would be wrong. There's too much pressure and not enough thinking and talking. It's dangerous, especially for people who are impressionable like the young or the autistic.

I genuinely think this is something that she cannot help.
You're absolutely right, and this will be her new 'special interest' just like mine was 'autism' when I was first diagnosed!

When you speak to your relative what do you hope to achieve when questioning the terminology you use. If you say "no transwoman" what will you have achieved?