Transgender relative, don't know where to start...

[NameChangerAmI]

Deliberately haven't posted in feminism, and don't want any haters, please.

Someone in my family (we are quite close, I love this person very much,) is trans (male to female transition).

We were having a conversation the other week, in which it was stated, as a fact, that this person has always been a girl/woman, and was just born in the wrong body.

I don't agree that either this person has ever been a "girl/woman" or ever will be a woman. I respect diversity more than many, but really wanted to say, "transwoman, not woman," but just felt that it was too controversial and goady.

I'm not very up to date with all trans issues and terminology. I think if I disagree about anything else, we would have a reasoned discussion and agree to disagree, but I know from previous comments and discussions that if I state my case, I'll be seen as wrong, not understanding, being ignorant, etc, and the problem will lie with me.

Not sure what I'm asking, but wanted to hear wide ranging views.

Would you just let it go, or approach it next time this issue comes up in conversation?

And round and round in circles we go. Let’s just accept that there’s two completely opposing views on this.

I don’t accept falsehoods or misogyny, so no. We all know the difference between XX and XY.

@BangingChoons

Gotcha, completely misunderstood your previous post. Apologies.

BanginChoons my experience in real life pre the last few years, aligned with yours. There are plenty of trans people who accept they’re trans, and not that they actually change sex. I am happy to support these people and their fight to have spaces for them, to be free from harassment and stereotypes. I am concerned they will bear the brunt of the very aggressive very vocal TRA’s.

@Happyspud
The issue here is acceptance or not. And it’s ‘or not’ for most mumsnetters unfortunately. It’s a pity for trans people

Completely agree with you there.

Datun Why should women comply to demands with which they disagree?

And round and round in circles we go. Let’s just accept that there’s two completely opposing views on this

Absolutely, round and round. Comes down to acceptance of transpeople. People don't want to accept, that's up to them, can't really change that. Just goes circular.

Comes down to acceptance of transpeople

No it doesn’t. It comes down to accepting a belief. Nobody is obligated to validate anyone else’s beliefs. End of.

You can accept, love and care for a person, without accepting, lock, stock and barrel, their subjective beliefs, particularly when their beliefs clash with reality.

Nobody who truly cares for an anorexic loved one tells them that yes, they are fat, for example.

In the OP's case, both parties are entitled to their beliefs. The transwoman believes she has always been a woman, the OP doesn't believe that. Nothing about that makes the OP a bad friend or relation.

Maybe. But my child is happy to not infringe on things that make others uncomfortable. They are happy to be considered a trans person. In my limited experience of trans people so far, there are very few who are passionate about being included as a Man or a Woman for sporting purposes or safe spaces, but would welcome acceptance as a trans man or trans woman, with their own categories for sports and their own safe spaces for changing and toilets.

Yup, transwomen ar enot women, they are transwomen. And transmen are not men, they are trans men. I have no fucking idea why this is so contrvesial to say, but apparently it is. Also trans people (taking trans to mean transsexual..rather than the ridiculous 'I wear lacy knickers in bed sometimes so therefor I am a woman types) have a whole different set of needs to those who do not suffer dysphoria about their sex. Giving womens rights away to male people will obviously render womens rights meaningless..no idea why some keep trying to pretend they don't understand this.

I have found that those actually transitioning, tend to actually think of others a bit more. As you say, transsexual people seem to be (on the whole) happy with the idea of a changing area away from the people of their sex, but not enroaching onto the areas of the opposite sex either. Its the shouty entitled MRA female penis types that are a huge issue at the moment. And are making it harder for both women, and trans people to live their lives.

Of course that does not apply to AGPs really. Which, unfortunately a hell of a lot of older transitioners seem to be.

@JessicaWakefieldSV

Yes as I said in my first post, that was a peer reviewed scientific paper that could be out of date by now. (it was 10 years ago). It's been part of the basis of my (not very often thought about) understanding of transgender and I haven't come across anything that's changed my mind. Other posters are giving their opinions/views without even referencing scientific findings so I don't see why you called me out on that! Do you know of any more recent peer reviewed papers that have found the concept to be incorrect?

I haven't come across anything that's changed my mind you came across it when you were studying 10 years ago. It’s been thoroughly debunked. Many times. Everyone is giving their opinion, yes. You went further and mentioned a sexist nonsense study from a long time ago, and the entire theory is obviously sexist and has been used to limit women and what they’re capable of. I’m amazed you have never read an article on this gendered brain issue, in the last 10 years. There’s plenty of info out there on it, and of course plenty of living humans who are examples of how wrong it was by doing things that apparently don’t match their gendered brains. Amazing that all these female mathematicians and scientists know what they’re doing, what with their pink brains designed for cleaning up after others and all that.

QuiFaitCa, even if small but measurable changes in brain structure or activity might be down to hormones, why does that, in your view, outweigh the much more obvious and significant differences in body structure and activity?

Nobody who truly cares for an anorexic loved one tells them that yes, they are fat, for example.

That's because if people humour you in your anorexia there's a fairly high chance you will kill yourself.

Not the highest chance, but still.

From what I remember of that study they did not control for sexual orientation.

All the subjects were homosexual men. All it suggests is that certain men are effeminate.

An effeminate man is not a woman. Any more than a masculine woman is a man.

(And it did not take into account non-homosexual men. I.e. autogynephiles. Who are the ones pushing for access and validation.)

I really don't understand how people can be so unthinking over this.

Women are a discrete category, in their own right. They are a separate concept with shared characteristics the put them in that category. Women are not feminine men. Women are not men without a penis. A man without a penis is a eunuch, not a woman.

What does the most effeminate man in the world have in common with a woman that places them in the same biological category?

Sex is a description of reproductive potential. Not how feminine or masculine you are, not if you are gay or straight, and not if you think the same way as the next person.

Even if you literally cut out my brain and stuck it in the body of a man, I would then be a man. A pretty fucked off man, but a man nonetheless.

That's because if people humour you in your anorexia there's a fairly high chance you will kill yourself.

If you humour a young persons trans ideology, they may opt for surgery, which would mean they sterilise themselves, and indeed medicalise themselves for the rest of their life. They are quite serious implications.

@JessikaWakefield SV 'entire study used to limit women and what they're capable of??' we may be talking about different studies. Pink brains and cleaning up after others has nothing to do with what I was referencing!

@Dodopatrol I was replying to OPs specific comment that her relative said she has always 'felt like a woman' - not getting into any wider gender/political discussion. As has been pointed out, I can't defend it in any more detail! but OP had asked for a wide range of responses to help her think through the issue.

Pink brains and cleaning up after others has nothing to do with what I was referencing! yes it does. Your subsequent comments show you had a passing gaze at a single study and haven’t kept up with the conversation since.

@JessikaWakefieldSV
Just in a couple of clicks I've found a Danish study in the Archives of Sexual Behaviour from 2017, not about transgender but homosexuality. So studies of hormones/chemicals influencing sexual/gender orientation are still coming out in respected journals.
No I haven't kept up with it but I defend the fact that these studies are valid, whether they are the answer or part of the answer, or will all be debunked in the future. As I've said it was all just a pointer to the OP to help her find out more for herself. link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-016-0923-z

Studies predicting homosexuality are not the same as claiming you can have a female brain in a male body.

And even if you could, it would still be a man. Because it's a description of reproductive potential, not thought patterns.

not about transgender but homosexuality

So not relevant here. Please take time to catch up on the decade of discussion you have missed, not just a clumsy google search that finds unrelated links. That just looks like you don’t know the difference between homosexuality and transgenderism.

Studies aren’t valid just because they exist. My goodness, there are plenty of poorly designed studies that are not accepted by the relevant scientific community.

Many of my family members (and people in general) hold views that I disagree with. My approach is to live and let live - assuming it’s not hurting anyone then they can believe whatever they want. No good can come from attacking someone’s beliefs and you won’t change their mind, you’ll just upset and alienate them.

@Datun Yes I know, my point was hormonal/chemical input in brain orientation is still a valid field of study that is ongoing, that the OP might like to research.
jessicaWakefieldSV Yes of course, the scientific method is for studies to be published in reputable journals so they can be tested by being replicated.

QuiFaitCa

I'm all for research. And if a cause for transgenderism was found, that would be fantastic.

Currently the indications are that gender dysphoria arises for various reasons, one of which is society's restrictive expectations.

Speak to almost any trans person and they will say I felt I couldn't do this, or do that. I feel like now I can be like this, or be like that.

That's not because they are born in the wrong body, it's because their personality is being limited by society's expectations.

Quite where the understanding of this departed with reality to conclude that these people are actually the sex they think they are, God knows.

Bollocks, I just had a list of links about this, and I've lost it. I'll have to do it again tonight when I have my laptop. But the idea of gendered brains has been debunked so many times. The brain is also a lot more plastic than people like to admit apparently.

Out of interest, I noticed it also isn't welcomed by transactivists. On a recent reddit thread most posters dismissed the science involved and hated the idea of brain scans being used as proof too. (After all, what if you failed the test but had symptoms? What if you don't have dysphoria but you're trans?)

@Datun @Lorit Thanks for that, interesting, god forbid there would be brain scan testing for it! I do think that brain chemistry plays a part in many of our human leanings eg twin studies who have been brought up separately having similar interests etc, but impossible to tease out nature/nurture.

It is definitely impossible to ignore XX and XY in favour of how someone thinks.