Transgender relative, don't know where to start...

[NameChangerAmI]

Deliberately haven't posted in feminism, and don't want any haters, please.

Someone in my family (we are quite close, I love this person very much,) is trans (male to female transition).

We were having a conversation the other week, in which it was stated, as a fact, that this person has always been a girl/woman, and was just born in the wrong body.

I don't agree that either this person has ever been a "girl/woman" or ever will be a woman. I respect diversity more than many, but really wanted to say, "transwoman, not woman," but just felt that it was too controversial and goady.

I'm not very up to date with all trans issues and terminology. I think if I disagree about anything else, we would have a reasoned discussion and agree to disagree, but I know from previous comments and discussions that if I state my case, I'll be seen as wrong, not understanding, being ignorant, etc, and the problem will lie with me.

Not sure what I'm asking, but wanted to hear wide ranging views.

Would you just let it go, or approach it next time this issue comes up in conversation?

The word "transgender" covers such a lot of things and motivations though; I reckon there's a world of difference between "I'm confused at gender roles, I hate puberty and I'm secretly a girl inside" teenagers, and the rise of late-transitioning AGP males.

My kid doesn't give a shit about trans sports, gendered toilets and changing rooms (they are happy with men, women and gender neutral, giving everyone a choice) or laws around self identification. They just want to feel like themself, at the moment it feels like the world sees them as a different gender to how they feel. It's a daily battle to feel normal and comfortable and accepted.

The thing is, I suppose it's easy not to give a shit when your Mum protects you 24/7 and you only have very limited interactions with the world.

What you're describing there sounds like what we used to call a "personality" too, not a "gender".

It's a daily battle to feel normal and comfortable and accepted.

I’m sorry your child is having this experience. It’s one that is sadly shared by women, and basically anyone that isn’t happy with expectations of how we should dress, present and behave.

My kid doesn't give a shit about trans sports, gendered toilets and changing rooms

Sports is a justice and fairness thing; they might become more aware of the unfairness of biological males taking women's sporting records as they get older and more mature.

Again, the toilets and changing rooms issues are ones they will probably understand better with maturity. 14 year olds don't know very much or think deeply about rape, upskirting and so on.

Not just women either. Honestly I thought we were leaving gender stereotype bullshit behind when I was growing up. But it's grown so much worse.

My sympathy for your child is sincere, btw. But 14 year olds know jack shit.

Honestly, if you can't find anything to say that is going to make someone you say you love, feel validated, safe and loved - probably don't say anything at all.

Making the decision to come out as trans isn't something that someone wakes up one day and spontaneously decides to do. This has likely been a long internal battle for years, or even decades.

If you're not sure what terms to use, relating to gender, ASK her. And it is ABSOLUTELY NOT your place to try and push any on to her.

that is going to make someone you say you love, feel validated, safe and loved

What a strange demand to make of those around you. I’m so glad I have relationships where we aren’t afraid to be honest, even challenging sometimes. That is what friends and family are for too.
Gender terms, I think you mean pronouns, don’t belong to trans people. They’re everyone’s. Trans people are not the most important people in the world. Nobody gets to compel speech in others.

Zingally

If you're not sure what terms to use, relating to gender, ASK her. And it is ABSOLUTELY NOT your place to try and push any on to her.

But that's not what's happening, is it? It's the other way around. I use the pronouns of her choice, her name of choice, and haven't objected to her statement of fact that she is a woman, and has always been female/girl/woman.

Can't you see, that's her pushing her views and opinions on me, or rather me just taking her views and opinions on board and adhering to them!

I am someone with whom the statement that she has always been female/girl/woman doesn't ring true, and isn't a fact, but an opinion.

And yet I haven't contradicted or challenged her, I've just smiled, nodded and then wondered how to deal with something that I don't believe being stated as fact.

Zing, you say you ‘haven’t objected to her statement of fact that she is a woman’....do you really believe that? I’m very very sure your body language and face has given well away exactly your thoughts on this. People are not stupid. So don’t wonder why she feels the need to keep discussing and validating and looking desperately in your eyes for a different (unspoken) response to what is incredibly important to her. She won’t feel respected or accepted with the polite smile and nod you give her. I’m certain of that.

Bloody hell! Who reported terf's post?

Next time, can people not report until at least the OP has had chance to read it, please?

Can someone pm me what it said, or will that get me & the messenger shot or banned?

Or maybe, just maybe....we need a code word, as I'm sure any thread with the word transgender in the title rings some sort of alarm bell in MNHQ, sets off flashing lights, puts the building into lock down, and automatically results in all staff currently on sick/maternity/paternity/parental leave, or even the poor sods just having a day off, into a trap door in the ceiling.

So you have to capitulate in thought, word and deed or you're disrespecting someone.

I wonder if that works with all religious and fundamental groups too?

Happyspud the OP is I, NameChanger.

And you really can't speak on behalf of my relative who you have never met.

Zing, you say you ‘haven’t objected to her statement of fact that she is a woman’....do you really believe that? I’m very very sure your body language and face has given well away exactly your thoughts on this. People are not stupid. So don’t wonder why she feels the need to keep discussing and validating and looking desperately in your eyes for a different (unspoken) response to what is incredibly important to her. She won’t feel respected or accepted with the polite smile and nod you give her. I’m certain of that.

In answer to your question, I do believe that, yes. My relative is so wrapped up in herself, that when she's talking about herself, she rarely comes up for air, never mind has the time or inclination to scan my facial expressions and body language.

In fairness, being on the spectrum means this doesn't come easily to her, and I respect that. You have to be very direct and explicit with her, she finds reading subtleties of language and body language very difficult.

I would literally have to say "What you just said about you having always been female/a girl/ a woman," in my opinion that is utter bollocks and I completely disagree with you," for it to register. I'm actually exaggerating slightly, but not completely.

Wow. Compelled body language as well as compelled speech. Scary days we live in.

Lorit and Menstruator you make such good points there!

Thank you.

@Lorit @Barracker @JessicaWakefieldSV

Not sexist hogwash, Peer reviewed studies that I remember reading when I was doing a Masters in Psychology. Specifically, if I think more about it, that the brain gets washed in a male hormone at a certain period of gestation to 'become' a male brain ie men in men's bodies are comfortable being men. If that doesn't happen for any reason, or is at too low a point, the brain remains more female hormone oriented. I'm not clear on details it was too long ago, and as I said I am not up to date, studies may have moved on or been discredited.

The issue here is acceptance or not. And it’s ‘or not’ for most mumsnetters unfortunately. It’s a pity for trans people.

Peer reviewed studies that I remember reading when I was doing a Masters in Psychology. so you acknowledge you might not be ‘up to date’ and don’t really know the details of this pink brain blue brain study, but you thought you’d pop on and repeat an outdated sexist myth anyway? Ok.

The issue here is acceptance or not

Actually no, it’s a lot more complicated when conditions are attached to that ‘acceptance’ that reads like demands to others to deny their own material, objective reality.

Women aren’t being denied anything except their ‘right’ to exclude other women they don’t consider to be woman enough. So yes, the issue is acceptance because if trans women were accepted as women, there would be no issue.

happyspud

Why should women comply to demands with which they disagree?

Women aren’t being denied anything except their ‘right’ to exclude other women they don’t consider to be woman enough.

No. They’re males so most people, not just women, see them as such. There is no ‘woman enough’ language, because that’s silly and makes no sense. Women currently have rights around single SEX provision, which would be denied if we had self ID laws in direct conflict with the equality act. The right to set boundaries around our bodies, is an important piece of law and an important social expectation.

But this thread isn’t about that happyspud, so you should probably restrict yourself to the OP.

A woman is an adult human female.

My sympathy for your child is sincere, btw. But 14 year olds know jack shit.
Maybe. But my child is happy to not infringe on things that make others uncomfortable. They are happy to be considered a trans person. In my limited experience of trans people so far, there are very few who are passionate about being included as a Man or a Woman for sporting purposes or safe spaces, but would welcome acceptance as a trans man or trans woman, with their own categories for sports and their own safe spaces for changing and toilets.

I may be wrong but this is my experience so far actually living this experience.

Trans people are people first. They are not all on a mission to do away with women and women's rights.