Transgender relative, don't know where to start...

[NameChangerAmI]

Deliberately haven't posted in feminism, and don't want any haters, please.

Someone in my family (we are quite close, I love this person very much,) is trans (male to female transition).

We were having a conversation the other week, in which it was stated, as a fact, that this person has always been a girl/woman, and was just born in the wrong body.

I don't agree that either this person has ever been a "girl/woman" or ever will be a woman. I respect diversity more than many, but really wanted to say, "transwoman, not woman," but just felt that it was too controversial and goady.

I'm not very up to date with all trans issues and terminology. I think if I disagree about anything else, we would have a reasoned discussion and agree to disagree, but I know from previous comments and discussions that if I state my case, I'll be seen as wrong, not understanding, being ignorant, etc, and the problem will lie with me.

Not sure what I'm asking, but wanted to hear wide ranging views.

Would you just let it go, or approach it next time this issue comes up in conversation?

Where to start?

How about, "Hello."
Leading on to tea and possibly cake.

Sorry, haven't read every post.

Namechange, putting aside the trans debate, it may be that you are one of the possibly few people with whom your family member feels able to be close to honest about their gender and experiences which could be why it seems to dominate their conversation with you.

If it was someone I had really cared about then I wouldn't make points and try and debate the rights and wrongs.

I would try and be a sympathetic audience and, in effect, let it go. Your family member will not be short of people who will tell them what you might otherwise say and you probably won't tell them anything they haven't heard.

I'm not making a point about the trans debate, nor am I saying your opinion is wrong or you wouldn't have anything to say, rather that I would try and bite my tongue in this case.

Good luck.

You’re disagreeing about a concept. They are actually living this life. I think you need to accept that yours is just an opinion and theirs is actually real life experience.

I would be politely changing the subject. & if that didn't work, quietly distancing myself.

In exactly the same way as if someone in my family was obsessing about the Queen being a lizard, say.

I couldn't & wouldn't go along with it, I wouldn't want to upset them, or cause a wider family row, so I'd avoid engaging with them on the subject.

"Leading on to tea and possibly cake."

Women do love tea and cake tbf.

Happyspud how is it “just an opinion” that the relative was born male?

And in direct opposition to @Pencilcase123, I think you do your loved one the greatest favour of their life by ‘indulging’ them. Even better if you try to put yourself in their shoes and see it from their perspective.

Transgender people already have massive suicide and attempted suicide rates. Making clear to someone you claim to love that you don't accept them isn't going to help with that.

Dear god. Three posts in and this nasty crap appears.

1. The evidence that transgender people (certainly in the UK) have 'massive' suicide rates is not there.

1. Tarring all trans people as suicidal is just bigotry.

1. Saying 'you have to believe x or this person will kill themselves' is appalling blackmail.

1. Time and again charities, the NHS and mental health professionals have asked people not to promote suicide ideation online. The reasons some groups have higher (not 'massive') suicide rates are complex and promoting suicide ideation is a big contributor.

Thanks everyone. Sorry if I've offended anyone on the feminist boards

I'm going to read through the comments again - I've got a lot to learn.

You'd be very welcome and find lots of good info over on the feminism boards :) we don't hate Trans people. We do object to the erosion of women's rights.

that is until in a conversation they referred to me as a cis-woman. I had to calmly explain thy I wasn’t a cis-woman because I didn’t identify as a cis-woman, I identify as a woman. I said that just because they feel they need to be redefined, I don’t and I’d appreciate it if they didn’t do that again as I feel it’s just another way of being put in my place.

Brilliant

@PurpleCrowbar love the analogy

You’re disagreeing about a concept. They are actually living this life. I think you need to accept that yours is just an opinion and theirs is actually real life experience.

Presumably you are happy to accept that transubstantiation is real because of the lived experience of Catholics?

I have experienced essentially the same dilemma with a close relative whose whole life became based on and around religious beliefs I see as being nonsensical -- ridiculous, even.

How to deal with this? Talk about these beliefs, discuss why they are so ridiculous? Or keep away from such talk because it might be upsetting?

I decided I was close enough to this person to be honest to her face. We have had discussions upsetting to us both. But we have stayed fairly close even while perhaps regretting the mutual incomprehension about such important aspects of our respective beliefs and how they affect the lives we live. This seems the grown-up thing to do.

Had we not been so close, I would very likely have avoided any discussion of her beliefs, and kept our talk on more mundane matters.

I have always felt, however, that in any case I would not collude with (what I see as) foolish beliefs ... if directly challenged, I would always explain the truth of the matter, as far as I can understand it. We owe that much to each other, again as grown-ups.

(And of course we owe precisely that duty of honesty to our children.)

My advice, OP, fwiw, and depending on how close you are to each other, is that you do not force matters with your relative, whilst letting him/her know what your views are if it becomes appropriate.

What would be the appropriate attitude to a close friend or relative who wholeheartedly believed herself to be the reincarnation of Napoleon Bonaparte? Or who believed herself to have squared the circle or discovered the solution by radicals of the general quintic equation? Or who signed up to one of the myriad conspiracy theories around? The same.

That however, takes both parties. Your trans relative deserves respect, but so do you.

This is it in a nutshell.

Relationships don't work when one person insists on dominating another. You can gently explain to your relative that there are aspects of genderism that you don't agree with. You can also tell them that you love them and support them in living the best life they can. And your relative can either choose to agree to disagree and pay you the same respect you are paying them or they can insist on your capitulation. Hopefully it will be the former. If it's the latter - well, I'd recommend walking away but only you can decide whether or not to maintain a toxic relationship with a relative.

It's not really about transgender, your dilemma. It's about your relationship with a relative and whether or not it's conducted on a basis of equal respect and consideration.

I have family members who believe we were all created by an all-powerful invisible being. I think that's stupid but I wouldn't tell them that. I've no desire to argue with them.

When it comes to people we love, we overlook things we don't agree with.

You've said it yourself: you love this person. In such a situation the 'transwomen are women; no they're not they're men' is a treadmill to nowhere. It will likely destroy your relationship with her and there's nothing to be gained by doing so.

I do agree that politicking about 'Terfs' and stampeding over women's rights is a separate issue, though, and wouldn't be willing to entertain this - IF it ever became an issue. It may not. But this is what so many commenters on Mumsnet object to; not to trans people per se.

I think you need to accept that yours is just an opinion and theirs is actually real life experience.
But what about OP's real life experience of being a woman? Doesn't that count any more?

I actually don’t feel that it was my finest hour @CallMeRachel. I found it really upsetting to be disrespected so obviously by someone I’ve cared for my whole life. But, as many have pointed out already, respect works both ways regardless of the issue at hand and they needed to know that.

I would take a softly softly approach... but I would also be careful not to agree when they used the word "woman." If words like "Terf" or "cis" came out, that would indicate that they had likely been exposed to some extremely unpleasant antiwoman propaganda, and then I would have to task them to task.

Agree with this.

I actually have a post operative transsexual in my close family and she will actually tell people NOT to call her a woman, as the is a transwoman and saying woman is both incorrrect and erasing the trans part which has been a large part of her life. Its a bit of a minefield at times to be honest. But I would probably just stay quiet in this situation and listen to the stories about the transition and that. Unless, as quoted anti-woman type phrases like above started dripping out, in which case I would definitely re-assess.

I think the analogy with religious faith is apt. I don’t go along with it but I don’t challenge it unless it’s rammed down my throat or used as a reason to attack or insult.
As with other irrational beliefs tho, it’s important to make clear to your kids, if they’re exposed to it, that no one can actually be born in the wrong body. That’s not a good thing for kids to hear.

Not your body not your problem.

If you want to be gender critical then fine. You don't need to make it all about the closest transperson to you.

I've got a lot of sympathy for transpeople and a lot of sympathy for so-called TERFs. I've no sympathy at all for people who want to fight a political battle over the bodies of others.

I think you be kind to them, call them by the name they choose and defend them if anyone is mean about them. And in return you expect them to be kind about you, don't accept hostile language about gender critical women and don't accept forced teaming - e.g. if makeup is part of their look and you weren't into makeup then you don't take part in faux girly discussions about makeup. You don't have to say woman, you can say "you're a transwoman, that's cool by me". I'd be clear if necessary that I'm not prepared to accompany them to the female changing rooms as I don't think they can expect strangers to be able to tell the difference between transitioning person and disguised predator. I'd support them in asking to use the disabled changing if there are no individual ones otherwise.

I'd be itching to ask their views about sports if they do constantly want to talk about trans issues.

You’re disagreeing about a concept. They are actually living this life. I think you need to accept that yours is just an opinion and theirs is actually real life experience.

Hang on a minute. I am a woman and that is my lived experience so why should I have to accept someone's opinion on what a woman is?

@OP I have a trans family member. I don't feel any conflict between not believing in magical thinking and being supportive of her, perhaps because we are functional adults. My advice would be:

1. Avoid saying things which are obviously tactless. Of course she isn't a biological woman but pointing that out is completely unnecessary.

1. I think you can swallow calling her 'she' because it's someone you love.

1. Of course you don't need to change your beliefs. I'm not convinced most trans people buy this post-modern 'saying you are the opposite sex makes it so' rubbish. No one should be called cis unless that's how they identify. As pp said, respect is both ways.

1. It's absolutely OK and supportive to gently challenge error. Most blokes are pretty bad at understanding the female experience and she's going to make mistakes and be tactless. She needs your help. and understanding. As PPs have said- you can always back off and avoid if she's defensive.

Sorry, but what are "TERFs"?

Oh, and I do use the female pronouns, and her female name, not only to her, but to my family when said relative is not around. I have no problem with that, if course.

My family member is early 20s.