Transgender relative, don't know where to start...

[NameChangerAmI]

Deliberately haven't posted in feminism, and don't want any haters, please.

Someone in my family (we are quite close, I love this person very much,) is trans (male to female transition).

We were having a conversation the other week, in which it was stated, as a fact, that this person has always been a girl/woman, and was just born in the wrong body.

I don't agree that either this person has ever been a "girl/woman" or ever will be a woman. I respect diversity more than many, but really wanted to say, "transwoman, not woman," but just felt that it was too controversial and goady.

I'm not very up to date with all trans issues and terminology. I think if I disagree about anything else, we would have a reasoned discussion and agree to disagree, but I know from previous comments and discussions that if I state my case, I'll be seen as wrong, not understanding, being ignorant, etc, and the problem will lie with me.

Not sure what I'm asking, but wanted to hear wide ranging views.

Would you just let it go, or approach it next time this issue comes up in conversation?

Science is not bigotry

There is no law about quoting scientific fact, no matter how much some TRA or religious activists wish there were

Does it actually matter to you if she is a woman or a 'transwoman' though? Would you treat her any differently? Love her any less?

Imagine how much courage it has taken her to make this change. Support her wholeheartedly.

The OP is not a prejudiced bigot She's allowed to have an opinion.

I would just change the subject when it comes up.

It is better to be kind than right sometimes, but if i were you i would have to say to them , privately and as kindly as I could, that while I support their journey and will use their preferred pronouns I do not believe that humans can change sex.

By definition, women & girls are homogametic, i.e. with two of the same kind of sex chromosomes, XX,

whereas boys & men are heterogametic, i.e. with both X and Y chromosomes, typically XY but very occasionally XYY or XXY

For birds, some reptiles & insects, the females are heterogametic with Z and W chromosones;
however, this is not the case for mammals

Support your lived one to live as they wish

No need to say you believe in something you don't

Hijenny... your attack on AnActualWoman is barely comprehensible.

You think those of us who have been menstruating since 10-13, endured periods and a complete change in dominant hormone every two weeks ever since, suffered PMS (pain, suicidal thoughts, acne, aching boobs), got pregnant, had an abortion or bore the child, breastfed till our nipples cracked, endured the perimenopause etc etc can't be sure if we are women or not and are basing this assumption on external genitalia between our legs?

Are you conflating feminism with 'hate'? Seems odd when you're expressing a rational GC feminist analysis.

No, I was just hoping for a broad range of opinions and experiences, and I didn't want to narrow responses to people only on the feminist boards. Believe it or not, it's not only people on the feminist boards who have opinions and experiences, or the authority on trans issues .

"I know from previous comments and discussions that if I state my case, I'll be seen as wrong, not understanding, being ignorant, etc, and the problem will lie with me."

so you have had the conversation before? I wouldn't raise it again.

however, if every conversation is dominated by the journey and you can't get a word in about your own life, there's something to be said for saying to them that you would like to be asked how things are with you!

It's a really difficult one isn't it. For the sake of family harmony we often pretend to people that we think things are that we don't. Obviously we want to be supportive towards our own family members but we also need to be true to ourselves and our beliefs.

This person has gone down the road they have and there's no point in creating a family row about it. We can still get on with religious members of the family whilst not actually believing in their religion ourselves so I don't see why this should be any different.

The EA does cover self-ID trans people. As soon as someone is proposing to undergo gender reassignment they are protected.

Another protected characteristic under the EA is sex - i.e. male or female, so OP is also protected under the EA. The EA contains exceptions based on sex so that women only services can exclude tw, with or without a GRC, if they can show it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Because tw are not women and the law recognises this.

Another protected characteristic under the EA is religion or belief, including the freedom not to believe. Both OP and her trans relative are also covered here.

The EA is completely irrelevant in this situation. It covers employers, housing providers, providers of goods and services, organisations which carry out a public function, education and a couple of other categories. The EA has nothing to do with how two relatives or friends conduct themselves in the privacy of a living room.

I know you deliberately didn't post this in feminism but you would get more informed responses there - and no hate.

I have a family member who is the same op. I fully support them doing anything that improves their quality of life and I want them to be happy. But I don’t believe that this is necessarily the answer they’ve spent their whole life looking for, I think that they and their siblings are victims of a very haphazard upbringing and poor parenting and some significant mental health issues. This, has been the latest in a very long line of issues in their life.

You relative is covered by the Equalities Act 2010 this is completely irrelevant because (a) the Act doesn't say anything about how people should act in their private lives and relationships and (b) the Act doesn't put the beliefs of protected groups beyond question or require others to accept that what they say is true. It would be rather difficult to protect the incompatible religious groups if that were the case and BigChoc would be prohibited from disagreeing with her relatives about the literal truth of Genesis. The Act merely protects groups form discrimination etc, it does not tell other people what to say or think.

Cross post with Pencils who says pretty much the same thing

@PencilsInSpace

Thanks for that excellent, informative post. You've clarified things I've been too lazy to look up myself .

Thanks PencilsInSpace - I didn't know that it covered people from as soon as they plan to undergo gender reassignment.

OP - PencilsInSpace is totally right about the feminism board - there's no hate there, but lots of well informed helpful women

I know a couple of trans people and when they were each going through their first stages of transition it was all they talked about - it can be tough, as it is all consuming for them, but does get draining to listen to. Support and keep schtum, this phase will almost certainly pass, and once they're more settled living in their new identity they'll start talking about everyday things again!

I honestly believed outdated views like these no longer existed. A person is what they feel they are not what's hanging between their legs.

Go and tell that to victims of FGM.

A person is what they feel they are not what's hanging between their legs
Mine doesn't hang. Because I'm a woman. Quite a telling turn of phrase from you though.

It’s a tricky situation op. I’ve got a young, very mixed up transman on dhs side of the family. Typical profile (ASD, difficult upbringing) I don’t think you can change sex and would object to being called cis but I’d always respect his pronouns and unless goaded into an arguement I wouldn’t ever raise my opinions. It’s a bit like I wouldn’t rip into a Muslim friend saying I don’t believe in their faith etc. It’d just be a shorty thing to do to a friend or family member.

I honestly believed outdated views like these no longer existed

What, people who believe science is more significant than “feelings”? How is that outdated?

Monopolising everyone's attention with their transgender journey sounds somewhat narcissistic

A ‘shitty’ thing

""An actual woman" even your user name is pathetic"
Thanks, 'hijenny35'

". I don't know it. That's simply your opinion. What because you have the right bits between your legs your a woman? "
Biological fact is not opinion. And that second part of your sentence is part of it yes, of course

"What happened if they tested your hormone levels and you were in the make range? Your chromosomes aren't tested at birth what if they came back differing to what you'd always consider yourself? "
I'd be an abnormality, medically speaking. Unlikely though given I have birthed 2 DC, something a man with xy cannot do.

"the chromosomal make up of an egg has huge irregularities you don't believe that at any point some of these developing eggs start as one and then develop with errors meaning a person can be female with a male visual appearance"
I absolutely believe that, see it quite often tbh. Still a female though.

" So athelets who have the right femal anatomy from birth who have male hormone levels are still female?"
Are you taking about intersex? I believe as a collective they do not wish to be dragged into the transgender debate. But I'd say its perfectly possible tonnage male hormone levels and still be female - again, an abnormality, for want of a better word (fwiw I have characteristics which are classed as an abnormality so I'm not using that as an insult)

"I honestly believed outdated views like these no longer existed. A person is what they feel they are not what's hanging between their legs. Please don't spout your rubbish as "everyone knows it" not everyone agrees with you thank god you're not related to this poor woman who is going through the ordeal of having to handle being born in the wrong body."
Not sure biological fact will be outdated. Women/men are not a 'feeling' in someone's head, your confusing that with feminine and masculine - it should be fine for a man to be 'feminine' but these days that makes him transgender. Terribly sad.

The equality act is totally irrelevant here. It has no bearing on what a relative can say to a relative about their opinion on transgender feelings versus biological reality.

Also, i think when OP said she doesn’t want any hate. She meant, on this board, and not that she avoided the feminism board to avoid hate.