To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

[BinkyBaa]

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

BertsFriend that brings up a good point. The NCS has gender identity questions on their website, rather than sex, when signing up.

At the parents information meeting, I clarified with the leader about how they house the young people in their care - biological sex, or gender identity?

I was told it was always by sex, but that they had training recently and the directors told management that the law would soon be changing and they soon wouldn't be allowed to do that any longer. This is bunkum, not to mention ridiculously unsafe for the teenagers and adults overseeing them, but nobody seems to question it.

I have never come across an anti trans GC feminist. Trans people can campaign for their own space if they want but they are not allowed to railroad and gaslight biological women into submission. As the mother of an autistic girl (a significant number of asd girls are non conforming. An even more significant number are undiagnosed), I refuse to have autistic children (or any child for that matter) medically experimented on and left sterile. It smacks of eugenics and I will not stand back and cheer it on.

More often than not the comment is along the lines of 'it's just a really negative place and really transphobic and I'm not going engage anymore because you're all disgusting' and then running away because they don't like the debate.

This.

If you are so certain we've got it all wrong, and should shut up, then stick around and explain why. Plopping and running doesn't change any minds.

Got enough for your article BlinkyBaa?

It's not a conspiracy ghostyslovesheets, the tone of some attitudes towards trans people in previous threads threw me and tbh I just didn't get it.

Thanks to the people who did try to explain it to me.

Jane, be fair. I was curious because I've been lurking/reading aibu for a while and the anti-trans vibe stood out as the one thing I didn't generally agree with myself.

Outside of mumsnet users though, I don't think anyone is going to find this that interesting.

“Jane, be fair. I was curious because I've been lurking/reading aibu for a while and the anti-trans vibe stood out as the one thing I didn't generally agree with myself.“

Do you still think there’s an “anti trans vibe”?

I think you need to read more and you will realise it's not anti-trans and you will find plenty people outside Mumsnet who have an interest in protecting women's spaces but get accused of transphobia if they speak out.

BertrandRussell, based off the responses, I think it's a pretty even range of anti-trans, trans-inclusive and people with one specific concern like shared bathrooms or trans people in prison.

So it's still there but hardly universal. Those who talk the loudest stand out I guess.

“people with one specific concern like shared bathrooms or trans people in prison.”

What’s your view of people that? (I’m one-in case you missed my earlier posts)

I'm anti Self ID. I'm anti women's spaces being removed from us.

As an aside, GLL haven't seen fit to do a risk assessment, regarding trans access to changing rooms and allowing self sex ID.

Trans now means pretty much anything, including men who cross dress, not just body dysphoria.

@bellinisurge but Israel is a jewish state and SA is an Islamic state? The whole sharia law thing probably gave it away. Not all governments are secular, that’s a fairly modern occurance which we are fortunate enough to enjoy in countries like Britain.

@Binkyba do you mean the femenist boards maybe? I don’t think trans issues really tend to come on AIBU anymore. The femenist boards often range from being gender critical (believing in classical femenist style that gender is a harmful social construct and including transing into the harmful consequences of gender stereotyping) to anti self ID (worried that predatory men will use self ID to gain access to womens spaces). Haven’t really noticed any anti trans sentiment though. Posters mostly seem to be anti gender or concerned about men who would abuse the systems put in place to help trans people.

I think it's a pretty even range of anti-trans, trans-inclusive and people with one specific concern like shared bathrooms or trans people in prison. Talk me through that?

Name and shame the anti trans poster. Show me the words they posted

Tell me why trans people in ^womens' prisons are no problem

I did read on mumsnet about autogynophilia, never heard of it before. There's a thought here that a lot of trans individuals are misdiagnosed autogynophiles. Is that what you're referring to?

It's not a conspiracy ghostyslovesheets, the tone of some attitudes towards trans people in previous threads threw me and tbh I just didn't get it.

You don't get why removing all female protections against men, however they 'identify' might be problematic?

You don't get why letting men into female prisons, because they say words, might be problematic, particularly when they are known rapists, and/or murderers of women?

You don't get why making it impossible for women and girls to question a man in the female toilets, in case it might upset his feelings, is problematic?

Come off it.

BertrandRussell, I'm not going to demonize people who are worried/want to be more careful around trans-inclusion.

By anti-trans I'm referring more to the people who don't believe being transgender is legitimate. I think the complete exclusion of trans people is wrong.

That said, if you want my own beliefs for reference: I don't think trans people should compete in gendered sport because of the obvious advantage. However, I think objections to a lot of other trans issues I've see people get upset over like bathrooms/prisons/LGBTQ pride events are based in fear that trans people are all rapists/criminals/men with an ulterior motive to oppress women so strong they're willing to shape their lives around it etc.

I disagree with this. Bad people do bad things, but not all (or even most) trans people are bad people.

I'd personally rather have a more open dialogue around trans rights to confront/work around those fears instead of putting up roadblocks.

I'd personally rather have a more open dialogue around trans rights to confront/work around those fears instead of putting up roadblocks.

That's great.

What is your solution to toilets, prisons and refuges?

A roadblock would be keeping men out. And your idea is???

I worry that there's a lack of critical thinking generally. Nobody wants to be labelled a 'bigot' etc, and everybody wants to live and let live and be accepting. However, it is something that needs to be debated and discussed, and currently seemingly can't be.

Middle aged men who have lived their entire lives as men who then come out and say they 'feel like' they should be female; what does that mean? How can you know what it is to feel female? Is it just a matter of wearing dresses and make up? Behaving in a certain way? The majority of these men also come to this conclusion through cross dressing and masturbation, and again nobody wants to talk about this.

I've tried discussing this with friends but nobody wants to listen. I feel like we are being reduced to a set of harmful gender stereotypes. I also previously worked in a school where we had to teach about being transgender - this was to 9/10 year olds; I'd spent so much time trying to dissuade them away from stereotypes, and then was basically saying this person likes wearing make up so that means they should be treated as female.

I know there are some people who have total distress with their appearance and particularly their genitals - but I feel like this falls into a different category. Although even then therapy should be the first port of call, rather than radical surgery.

I hope that in the future we will live in a society where 'gender' does not matter. You can be male or female and dress and behave however you like and be accepted, without needing to try and 'become' that sex. But I feel like this has become distorted, and we're moving away from self acceptance towards an acceptance of surgery and normalising dysmorphia.

Some of you may be interested in this website, set up by “parents questioning the transgender narrative” I’ve no affiliation with them but admire their work: www.transgendertrend.com/press-release-enoughisenough-fundraising-campaign/

Sackrifice, honestly, to give an example I think bathrooms are a none issue. Trans women should be fine to use women's bathrooms. I think the problem is the fear women have around it.

There was a post recently that had a lot of comments wanting to remove the T from LGBTQ pride/awareness. If anything raising awareness that trans people are legitimate people and not rapists by default would probably go some way to dispelling the bathroom fear though.

Men who pretend to be trans in order to get access to women are a whole other issue that needs dealing with separately.

I think the issue is that to many women you can put on the costume of a woman but you are still a man and many women don't want men in women only spaces.

Men who pretend to be trans in order to get access to women
And how do we tell the difference? Which is precisely why women need their own spaces.

However, I think objections to a lot of other trans issues I've see people get upset over like bathrooms/prisons/LGBTQ pride events are based in fear that trans people are all rapists/criminals/men with an ulterior motive to oppress women so strong they're willing to shape their lives around it etc.

You're going to have to to define what you mean by trans in this case.

If a transwoman is anyone who says they are, then of course it's going to attract every predator in the country.

When it was limited to men (or women) with a gender recognition certificate, people weren't too bothered. Because there are only 5000 of those issued.

But now, in every walk of life, a GRC is irrelevant. The prison service doesn't base the transference of rapists on whether they have a GRC or not. Hence Karen White sexually assaulting incarcerated women.

Little wonder, when it is people who are lifelong extreme pornography advocates, or get their penis out in public, who were the ones who advised Maria Miller's equalities committee.

It is not anti-trans.

But in seeking to promote rights and protections for transgender women, the rights and protections of women are being put at risk.

Mumsnet users are overwhelmingly women. We want to protect our rights.

Plus I am often disappointed that the issue is mainly restricted to the Feminism section as opposed to the more mainstream sections of the site.

I have no issue with people who are trans. I have no issue with them having access to security, privacy and safety. But they cannot have it at the expense of the security, privacy and safety of me and my daughters.