To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

[BinkyBaa]

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

Snuggybuggy, are those your views or an observation?

If that's your view, how do you feel about trans people with gender dysphoria who've been through HRT, surgery and so on?
They're likely more out of place in mens spaces than womens spaces at that point so what's the solution for them?

OP what do you think of a trans person?

Binky do you think that the fact that you personally, individually, think toilets is a non-issue is reason enough for all women to accept transwomen (who will probably be fully male-bodied) into their intimate spaces?

And how do you distinguish between the transwoman and the man who pretends to be trans to get access to women?

Sorry Binky but fuck are you ill informed!

Stats are about 126 trasnwomen in prison, 60 are sex offenders. It is hard to tell exactly how many have commited offences against women in womens prison for many reasons that have been gone into on many threads in FWR. But only one is too many and most posters on FWR can name 3 in the UK over the last year!

The roadblock you talk about is you calling posters transphobic for wanting to discuss that! Personally I'd like a more open dialogue about what can be done when womens rights are eroded by trans rights? Instead of starting at "many transwomen are fine" lets start with "transwomen are as violent as any other man" and sort out the rights and protections from there. At least then only feelings get hurt!

Rosawaiting, I think everyone (provided they're not out to harm other people) should be able to be the person they feel they are. Life is too short not to be.

If that's your view, how do you feel about trans people with gender dysphoria who've been through HRT, surgery and so on?

That's less than 15%. Most transwomen keep their penis. And insisting on a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is transphobic now.

This has gone way, way beyond a handful of men.

Sackrifice, honestly, to give an example I think bathrooms are a none issue. Trans women should be fine to use women's bathrooms. I think the problem is the fear women have around it.

You think?

What about girls in female toilets? Do they have the right not to see a penis when in a female toilet? You know that 80% of trans women keep their penises right? What is that telling you?

And how do you tell a transwomen who has had surgery from one that has not?

The solution for 'them' is a problem for men to solve. It is male violence you are talking about. Transwomen are male, no matter how much cosmetic surgery they have.

They're likely more out of place in mens spaces than womens spaces at that point so what's the solution for them?

Men to move over? Just a thought.

Why should women accept all men, just because a tiny minority have their penises removed?

Rosawaiting, I think everyone (provided they're not out to harm other people) should be able to be the person they feel they are. Life is too short not to be

What does that mean in terms of policy?

'Hey everyone, we are just changing policy so you can do what you want if you want. Yes that's right. No more laws. If you feel like you want to rob a bank, go ahead.'

Go and inform yourself, policy is not dictated by feelings; it is dictated by fact.

They're likely more out of place in mens spaces than womens spaces at that point so what's the solution for them?

So how does that work with Hampstead heath ponds?

There was a mixed pond, which meant they did not have to go into men's spaces. But they campaigned vigorously to be allowed into the women's.

It's this sort of issue which we talk about on FWR. It becomes pretty clear, pretty quickly, that it's about dominating women, and validation, not about safety for men who identify as women.

Cassianandor, no of course I don't think my own personal opinion should be the only opinion. People asked my view in return so I gave it.

I don't have all of the answers. I suppose on face value I cannot identify a rapist who hasn't raped anyone yet, regardless of whether they're trans or not.

That problem is probably better dealt with by the whole teach boys not to rape/make the authorities believe women debate.

how do you feel about trans people with gender dysphoria who've been through HRT, surgery and so on?

OP, how do you feel about trans people without gender dysphoria?

I suppose on face value I cannot identify a rapist who hasn't raped anyone yet, regardless of whether they're trans or not Which is why we have sex segregated spaces in the first place. See what you did there?

OP, this thread might help you.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

You're not the first person to wonder what on earth this is all about, and why women are so up in arms about it. And you're not the first person to wonder why we can't all just rub along, surely it shouldn't be that difficult.

So that link might help.

Sackrifice, I hardly said no more laws did I? The comment you quoted did include "provided they're not out to harm other people" didn't it?

" think everyone (provided they're not out to harm other people) should be able to be the person they feel they are. "

but that is not a statement that can inform law. Are you saying a man who feels like a woman should be treated in a woman's hospital ward?

I suppose on face value I cannot identify a rapist who hasn't raped anyone yet, regardless of whether they're trans or not

We are way, way beyond this. Karen White is a convicted rapist, a man identifying as a woman who has already raped and expressed an interest in children.

They were put in a female prison with a mother and baby unit.

Kayleigh Woods, a transwoman was deemed suitable to go to a female prison, even though they had bound and gagged a woman, tortured and killed her.

Rapists and murderers are being placed with incarcerated women. Most of whom would have suffered from some form of sexual abuse, already.

It's positively mediaeval.

I don't think trans people should compete in gendered sport because of the obvious advantage.

Unfortunately OP, due to this view you can be seen as 'anti-trans' as much as the rest of us.

The official line is that there is no advantage. Some prominent trans sports people believe that women just don't try hard enough.

Binky indeed, you can't identify a rapist thus we have segregated spaces to protect women and girls when they are at there most vulnerable. Sex offences are predominantly commited by men (98%), male people. Transwomen are male. Nearly half of transwomen in prison are in for sex offences (a higher proportion than the men-who-identify-as-men prison population).

Do you still think transwomen in women's toilets is a good idea, given that I'm assuming you don't think men in women's toilets is a good idea?

I think the Hamstead Ponds is a really good discussion point. I have no doubt that over the years many, many trans people have swum in the mixed pool. There is no reason I can think of for trabswomen to campaign for admission to the mixed pool except to make a point. There will now be women who can’t use the pool at all

And it would be easy to say that women not trying hard enough is just the view of fringe extremists on twitter but this person was on BBC 5Live (IIRC).

When Martina Navratilova is branded an LGBT heretic, you know the world is going fucking mad.

How the hell did we get to the stage that saying anything remotely factual regarding women or trans women is seen as transphobic?

I don't agree with self ID and nor do the majority of women that I know. It's madness to think you can proclaim yourself as a woman and are then able to go into a women's only changing room, a women only prison and compete as a woman in sports. Surely it should take more than that to change from a man to woman. Feelings don't suddenly become biology.
I don't care what other people do, I certainly don't judge what men or women want to be or how they feel.
However sometimes the trans movement seems very anti women which is strange as it's what trans women want to be.

Vulnerable group my arse. Many of them are vocal, aggressive and woman hating.

how do you feel about trans people with gender dysphoria who've been through HRT, surgery and so on?
They're likely more out of place in mens spaces than womens spaces at that point so what's the solution for them?

Make the men’s safer for them. Teach males not to attack other maleS.