To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

[BinkyBaa]

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

Read some of the threads expressing specific concerns on Feminist Chat.

I am not remotely anti trans. Why would I be? Trans people are living their lives like the rest of us and their being trans is no one else’s business and I will fight for their right to live free of discrimination and persecution.

However I do not buy into the ideology that a vocal and powerful lobby of Trans Rights Activists support, and demand that we all buy into or be declared transphobic.

I believe we should all be free to live within whatever gender we like but that gender does not replace sex as an identity or a definition.

I do not believe that the rights of Trans people should take precedence over the rights of women and result in women using single sex spaces where it is necessary for dignity or potentially safety.

I do not believe that sex is defined by gender. The Y chromosome, the presence of testes, a male hormone pattern that produces a male pattern of growth at puberty affecting nine and muscle growth is down to sex not gender and these characteristics cannot be defined as ‘female’ because the owner identifies as a woman.

Because of this I believe sport should be run along sex- defined categories.

I believe in free speech and free discussion. Because I defended someone who had lost their job because they simply debated the GRA I have been ‘doxxed’, denounced on Twitter, reported to my employer for ‘transphobia’.

I stand in disagreement with some Trans Rights Activists. I am not anti trans.

AIBU, OP?

Please answer.

Please quit with the whole "if you see any transphobia, report it" disingenuous line, when many of the threads about trans people have a number of deleted posts for this exact reason. I've certainly seen posts where all trans women are framed as perverts, have reported them, and they've been deleted.

Women losing, not using, single sex spaces.

“I've certainly seen posts where all trans women are framed as perverts, have reported them, and they've been deleted.”

That’s good. It shows the system works, surely?

I understand the need to protect women only spaces but that right should never come at the expense of anyone else's rights.

But why does that only apply to women? It's ok for trans rights to come at the expense of women.

I've certainly seen posts where all trans women are framed as perverts, have reported them, and they've been deleted.

And they should be. You did the right thing and those posts should be deleted.

That doesnt make mn transphobic. It also doesnt mean any women not fully supporting trans rights over women rights, are transphobic.

“I understand the need to protect women only spaces but that right should never come at the expense of anyone else's rights.“

So how would that work in practice? Could we use the Hampstead Pools as an example? There used to be a woman’s pool, a men’s pool and a mixed pool. Now anyone self identifying as a woman can use the woman’s pool. So that woman only space has gone. Was that the correct decision?

I disagree, OP. MN has a very robust policy on moderating trans issues (there's a pinned thread setting this out at the top of FWR), and transphobic comments are always deleted if reported (and they are always reported - twitter indicates that there's a group of people who watch MN obsessively solely in order to screenshot/report things). FWR is also the only part of MN which has a "3 strikes and you're out" rule for banning people with repeated deletions.

Re. some of the comments upthread, it should be pointed out that sometimes decisions on human rights are a zero sum game.

For example, you can't have a legal system which allows the foetus an absolute right to life (thus compelling women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term and give birth, with all the attendant health risks, against their will) and simultaneously allows women the right to bodily autonomy, in particular deciding whether they want to give birth (at he expense of the embryo/foetus). The legal system has to come down on one side or the other.

Unfortunately trans rights (as opposed to the general human rights which we all share) are one such zero sum game in certain areas (I would argue a very limited number of areas, such as sport and women's prisons). Most of the time it doesn't matter, but there are a few areas where the decision as to whether the slogan "transwomen are women" is to be taken absolutely literally, or seen as a polite legal fiction to apply in almost all, but not every circumstance, has crucial practical consequences.

For the avoidance of doubt, the current legal situation as enshrined in the Gender Recognition Act and Equalities Act, is the latter. In UK law as currently constituted, gender reassignment is a polite legal fiction, applicable in almost all circumstances, but not all, and organisations can apply for single sex exemptions (sex is also a protected characteristic) where it can be argued that these are proportionate and necessary.

As I understand it, some members of the trans community (not all) want to replace gender reassignment with gender identity (a looser term, with no gatekeeping to check that people are acting in good faith), and to repeal the parts of the Equalities Act which allow for occasional, proportionate exemptions on the basis of sex.

I don’t think AIBU is anti or pro anything. There are widely differing opinions expressed on MN everyday on every thread.
The thing with all things trans is that unless your opinion is wildly pro you must be anti. No room for a measured and considered middle ground or even gentle criticism.
MN is, happily, a place where critical views on a lot of topics are aloud. I hope that never stops even though I do find myself with my head in my hands in despair when I read the anti cycling threads .

Lesbians being told to get used to penis.

Lesbians being told they are transphobic if they don't accept a penis is female.

“Trans-phobic” irritates me. Personally I think we spend far too much time reiterating what everyone already knows. Nobody really thinks we should be topiarising children to look like the opposite sex, or filling them up with hormones. Nobody really thinks that calling yourself male or female makes you magically become those things, nobody really thinks sex specific refuges and toilets and services should be used by all. Just because someone shouts loudly that everyone hates them and they are being treated dreadfully doesn’t make it true.

Personally I’m far more worried about really disadvantaged people. People who are refugees, trafficked people, fgm, disabled people here in the uk, people flapping at their eye lids to indicate they might be about to cry...not so much, but then the caricature of “woman” presented is often so far from the truly incredible brave intelligent women I know and was brought up with that it’s irrelevant.

I usually avoid the feminism boards on MN, OP, because a majority of the threads are voicing anxiety about trans women. Sometimes this obsession spills over into AIBU.

If you google Mumsnet and transphobia, some interesting articles will pop up.

Here's an article from the NY Times about anti-trans feminists in the UK that references MN.
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/terf-trans-women-britain.html&ved=2ahUKEwj_7caLns_iAhWLTxUIHd0pBtcQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2ybBls3y53eyytljPSh697&cshid=1559631086056" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/terf-trans-women-britain.html&ved=2ahUKEwj_7caLns_iAhWLTxUIHd0pBtcQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2ybBls3y53eyytljPSh697&cshid=1559631086056

Speaking as a fairly new poster (previous lurker) I certainly wouldn't say that MM is an echo chamber in this issue, but represents what I believe the majority of people already think.

I would class myself as supportive of trans people. I want them to be free to express themselves, free from predjudice, free from violence. But the concerns I've seen on here are around the effect of Self-ID in particular on women's (and children's) rights.

Before coming on here I assumed that:

Only people with gender dysphoria were classed as 'Trans'. Specifically I thought it was someone diagnosed with that, who had counselling to accept what they could and could not change, and who had extreme surgery performed because of their mental condition (as all the dysphorias are surely?)

That no one would ever actually allow any of the following to happen:

Naturally much stronger men to compete against women (it's not just testosterone is it? It's larger lungs, heart, different muscle distribution etc.)

Fully intact male rapists to be transferred to womens prisons, who then go on to rape those women.

Fully intact male brownie/rainbows leaders and members, allowed to do the same overnights and redidentials, and the policy being NOT to inform the parents.

In short, MN didn't radicalise me to anything. It actually showed me the reality of what was happening and blew the fuzzy feelings of 'Oh it's alright isn't it, what harm can it do, away.

I think most people assume that what I said above was true, and I can't see many of the general population not being shocked when they find out what is really happening.

These posts seem to appear every so often, but the poster can never show any examples. I don't think mumsnet is anti trans at all.

That part leapt out at me too, Bertrand and Isabelle.

Fairy, your comment acknowledges that there is conflict between women’s rights and the rights of male people who have transitioned to female.

How can we protect women’s spaces if to do so will stop them being women’s spaces?

I don’t believe ensuring the safety of men who feel they are women should come at the expense of women’s rights. Women’s rights are important and it’s been hard enough to get them. Should they be eroded because a small group of men wish to have women’s rights extended to them?

If those men are unsafe in men’s spaces, then they need to find a way to improve their safety without encroaching on women’s rights.

Please quit with the whole "if you see any transphobia, report it" disingenuous line, when many of the threads about trans people have a number of deleted posts for this exact reason. I've certainly seen posts where all trans women are framed as perverts, have reported them, and they've been deleted.

Is there a typo there? Did you mean to say that the posts weren't deleted?

Otherwise, what's the issue?

It's very intimidating for people who are trans supporters to join in the debates because they'll be shouted down by the very vocal ones (this will probably happen to me now).

BeanBag7 why does disagreement here have to be characterised as "shouting down"?

Nobody here has told you that you are a Nazi, a fascist, a bigot. Nobody here has threatened your children, called your employer with demands to have you sacked, targeted the charities you support and tried to have their funding pulled. Nobody here has made a call for others to join them in meeting you in real life to "fuck you up". All those things and more are what women who stand up for their rights face on other social media platforms.

I think the discussion here is on the whole pretty measured and respectful. If you think that counts as "intimidating", then you must be unaware of how this issue is discussed elsewhere online - and it's certainly not pro-women posters who are perpetrating the intimidation. And if you can't handle any kind of calm challenges to your own views, then that's up to you to manage that, but I think you are not seeing the big picture here.

Nice one OP. Drop the bomb and walk away... no goading it all on your part

And will the OP ever return?

Agent what do you mean by Jewish government? You mean Israeli poilicy? The latter wouldn’t be anti-Semitic if you said that and could back up your points. There’s no such thing as a Jewish government so therefore you are anti-Semitic.

I understand the need to protect women only spaces but that right should never come at the expense of anyone else's rights.

And vice versa. Stonewall are wealthy, influential & powerful. If their only concern was about safe spaces for transpeople they could fix that in a heartbeat without impinging on women.

But the desire for validation, including the increasingly vague definition of trans (‘anyone who says they are’) means that the only solution they consider acceptable is for us to accept men in our spaces.

There are two separate issues which are separate but connected:

1. supporting those who are trans and promoting equality. On board totally. One should be restricted from working, living life, being allowed to go about their business because of their personal life.

2. the push by some members of the trans community to erode women's rights to benefit them and to push an agenda into schools and children's groups that risks safeguarding procedures established over years

It's part 2 that's the problem. So it's very much "be who you are but don't be detrimental to others" at its most basic. It's not transphobia, it's a fight for women and children's rights

Some posters on MN clearly are very clearly anti-trans. I saw comments recently using rohypnal as a comparison and previously posts along the line of ‘I’d rather a man do x y z than a transwoman, then atleast you know they probably haven’t got a fetish’

Some just care about the conflict with woman’s rights which is absolutely fair enough and they should discuss concerns.

Like anywhere, you do have bigots and bigots sometimes do what they can to fit in. They’ll use extreme examples to spread their hate about a group of people and lump them together. They’ll also jump on the bandwagon of people who aren’t bigots but have genuine concerns. This can then make the whole group seem bigoted if the bigots become more prominent than the original fighters.

Overall, I don’t think MN is anti-trans on a whole, some are but the majority are just pro-woman’s rights and will debate fiercely with other groups that threaten them.

Please quit with the whole "if you see any transphobia, report it" disingenuous line

You dont want people to be told to report transphobia

I certainly report when i see homophobic, transphobic, disabalist comments

Totally agree, I've been shocked at how trans negative the site is. I think it's disgusting. No I don't think it's pro women I think it brings all women trans or not down. I don't believe sharing space with trans women is the same as men inserting themselves into women areas.