To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

[BinkyBaa]

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

They’ll use extreme examples to spread their hate about a group of people and lump them together.

The thing about TRAs is that their very representatives, their spokespeople ARE extreme examples. The ones who put photos on social media of them getting their lady penis out in their workplace, the ones who want to be elected representatives of political parties and who are inextricably linked with child abuse etc. If these are their spokespeople, the ones who appear in public, it rather leaves you wondering about the whole movement.

MN is representative of what a lot of people I know think. I know people who are GC, but mostly I know people who just don't care and think the whole trans thing is nonsense and just roll their eyes when it comes up.

I saw comments recently using rohypnal as a comparison Oh dear!

You probably read the thread about pronouns being hard wiring for the brain. The one that include The Stroop Test.

You totally misunderstood the rohypnol comment.

HiJenny tell me again how a humans change sex...

I think the inescapable point is that there are situations-not many, but important ones- where trans rights and women’s rights are completely irreconcilable. Sport is a good example. My son, for example, is a good, but not exceptional, all round sportsman at school. Often in the top 3. Held the school long jump record for his age group for one season.. If he identified as a girl, he would easily take all the track and field events. He is just taller and faster and stronger than girls his age. Now, i’m not saying that’s going to happen often, but it has happened. This is particularly important in America, where sports scholarships to college are more of a thing

men inserting themselves into women areas Oooer missus!

Sorry, pressed send too soon.

We need to be able to talk about this stuff without the risk of being called transphobic. I suspect a teacher would be in big trouble if they challenged the situation I describe. You’d have to be pretty brave to do it.

Totally agree, I've been shocked at how trans negative the site is. I think it's disgusting.

HiJenny35 exactly what do you find "disgusting" here?

And do you also find the abuse of women elsewhere on the internet by trans activists "disgusting"? Are you shocked by the death threats, the threats to "fuck up" women in real life? Are you shocked by the vile abuse that lesbians get when they say they don't want to sleep with males? Are you shocked by the declarations that women who don't submit should "die in a fire" or have their heads "stomped on"? And do you also take the time to type out posts to the perpetrators there to tell them that they are "disgusting"?

I'm sure you will be back with examples of when you've done exactly this.

“I don't believe sharing space with trans women is the same as men inserting themselves into women areas.”
Well, if you look at the prison situation, and some of the sport examples from the States it has been exactly that.....

Yes, there are lots of nasty comments which should be reported. Personally I would like to see MN come down harder on racist and disablist comments. I realise modding is a hard and (for the most part) thankless task, but I think sometimes they let disablist and racist comments slip through under the guise of "the poster meant well, they just mis-spoke".

It's worth reflecting on why we have women's rights in addition to general human rights. Some of them redress historical imbalance (within my lifetime we've gained the equal pay act and seen the much-needed criminalisation of rape within marriage). But some of them refer to female biology - for instance legal protection against being sacked during pregnancy or against discrimination while breast feeding.

There is a small subset of rather vocal activists within the trans community (and I think it is a small subset) who take any sort of women's rights rooted in biology not to be protections afforded because of the specific life circumstances that come with female biology, but instead as a kind of affront to inclusivity. Thus, for example, female changing rooms become not places where women can change free from the male gaze and the threat of sexual harassment, but places of segregation akin to "whites only" bathrooms in 1950s America. I think the racial segregation analogy is a deeply flawed one (one only has to look at the campaign for women's public toilets in parts of rural India to see that this is actually one of those issues driven by the specific needs of being female - women are more at risk of being on the receiving end of sexual violence than men) but it's one which needs to be discussed openly, without twee euphemisms and obfusticating language.

I think it was the "no debate" hashtag which drew a lot of us to this - where changes to the existing legal framework protecting women's rights are up for grabs, the answer surely has to be "yes, we must debate - openly, honestly, without contrary views being shut down."

I don't believe sharing space with trans women is the same as men inserting themselves into women areas.

Please answer this as no one ever has.

A trans woman doesnt want to share space with biological men.....despite being a biological Male....why?

And why is the automatic answer to that, that woman must share their space with biological males instead?

This is the post I was referring to, part of the second post in the thread.

"Which posts are you referring to? I haven't seen any transphobia"

You see it every time. I don't deny legitimate concerns about women's rights but to pretend that no one is using this as a cover for some pretty nasty comments about a largely vulnerable group is bad faith.

And yes, I'm pleased they get deleted but I'm not pleased that people feel they can make those comments on Mumsnet in the first place.

ah the OP didn't mean to be goady but posts and doesn't return.

I am always a bit suspicious of these faux innocence threads - good way of identifying pro women posters.

Women's rights are equal to everyone else's rights - they don't get bumped aside because trans people are more important ffs!

i agree OP, Mumsnet has a rep on the internet for being anti trans but you can't actually say that on here because you will get ripped to shreds for daring to have an opinion different to the majority (like i'm about to now). Therefore, I discuss the issue on other forums on the internet that actually understand feminism properly. I wont say the name of said forum because again, i'll get ripped to shreds for mentioning it.

I'm not going to respond anymore on this thread because I know that I will now get an onslaught of verbal interrogation for my opinions and I can't be arsed with it anymore. I just wanted to have my quick say.

I don't believe sharing space with trans women is the same as men inserting themselves into women areas.

According to Stonewall, anyone who says they are trans is trans. Even if they just call themselves a woman when they put heels & lipstick on a couple of days a week. Even if they feel 'a bit girly'. Stonewall specifically include cross-dressers and Tara Hewitt, who advises the NHS, has specifically included men who dress up because it turns them on.

So at what point are you drawing the line, HiJenny35?

to pretend that no one is using this as a cover for some pretty nasty comments about a largely vulnerable group is bad faith.

Can we have evidence of this 'largely vulnerable group' please.

Why should men say a word and immediately everyone runs to them? Even when they are actual known abusers of women?

What is it that has made you think that these mainly white adult men, are in any way 'vulnerable'? What is their vulnerability? Who is a threat to them? Is it feminists? Lesbians? Who?

I'm not going to respond anymore on this thread because I know that I will now get an onslaught of verbal interrogation for my opinions and I can't be arsed with it anymore. I just wanted to have my quick say.

Yes, don't stick around to explain why you think men can change into women and why women are so mean for asking the question.

This has never happened before ever.

Mumsnet has a rep on the internet for being anti trans Says who? Think on that and then ask why they don't have the same discussion about certain Farms and other spaces that REALLY do have a lot of ant trans threeads,set up, self declared hateful. Why not have at them?

And verbal interrogation, aka discussion, diagreement, is far preferable to havng the police turn up at your door, or your harraser, or being raped by the 'woman' you share a rape crisis centre, changing room or prison with!

If you can't even bring yoruself to say where you get your 'real' information from then what are we to do? Sit and sing Cum by ya?

I discuss the issue on other forums on the internet that actually understand feminism properly.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at that comment.

I do have questions and i’d really like someone to answer them for me- if anyone would like to DM me the name of a forum where all opinions can be aired and addressed I would be very grateful.

I discuss the issue on other forums on the internet that actually understand feminism properly.

Is that the sort of feminism that puts men's desires first?

OP "I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is."

That would be completely understandable.

Probably what you're picking up on is that many posters on MN are against self-identification. So if a man "identifies" as a woman but has had no surgery, they are, according to some interpretations of the law, allowed to use womens' toilets, hospital wards etc etc.

"trans" was often used as short hand for transsexual, which was normally defined as someone who had surgery to "change sex". Now "trans" is about how someone "identifies" so a man says he feels like a woman - yes you may sing Shania Twain - and he is allowed to go the women's changing rooms.

I discuss the issue on other forums on the internet that actually understand feminism properly

Oh boy

i agree OP, Mumsnet has a rep on the internet for being anti trans but you can't actually say that on here because you will get ripped to shreds for daring to have an opinion different to the majority (like i'm about to now).

We are fully aware of the 'rep'. In spite of that, no one is 'ripped to shreds' or 'shouted down' for having a differing opinion. If you can participate in respectful debate then excellent, because frankly it's needed. However I have yet to see someone come onto one of the threads and prove any transphobia or make a valid point against the 'majority view'. More often than not the comment is along the lines of 'it's just a really negative place and really transphobic and I'm not going engage anymore because you're all disgusting' and then running away because they don't like the debate.

If you can't back your argument up when you're wading into a debate with some incredibly knowledgeable women on a subject they are passionate about then yes, you're going to feel pretty bruised by the experience in the same way any person would not being prepared for a proper discussion or debate (quite often they they are choosing to start). That's not because they're ripping you to shreds, that's because you're attacking the views of women that are based in fact and research, calling them bigots for those views and they are rightly defending their position. They have no obligation to pat you on the head and say 'it's ok we can talk about something else' if you aren't capable of doing the same.

I gave a talk at an assembly for 6th form leavers and their parents and part of it was advice for anyone thinking of travelling before university. I asked the girls to check with organisations that their sleeping accommodation didn't accept men (self identifying as women) sleeping and showering in the female dorms, such as Youth Hostel Scotland.

I was inundated with questions/disbelief. People need to know this stuff, it's been brought in under the radar. Mumsnet is helping with this because the priority is women and girls, as it should be.