To be delighted That Leave Have Lost

[donotcovertheradiator]

I know it looks as if Brexit have won but in every single case, if you add up all the votes secured by the other parties then together they have more votes than Brexit. That means more people want to remain in Europe than Leave.

I don't envisage him becoming pm but he was asked about his plans for the country so that's what I'm referring to. Luckily it's a highly unlikely scenario because he always fails to get elected as an MP and this election shows there hasn't been a massive swing towards him.

NoYo I haven't seen anyone claiming green/libdem won, but that remain won over leave. Because despite the mental gymnastics some leavers are performing this was a one issue, soft referendum and the amount of people voting for unambiguously pro-remain parties for other reasons will have been vanishingly slim.

By election in Peterborough will be interesting. That's pretty much Brexit heartland and will certainly get an anti-Labour vote, given the antics of its deselected MP.

I think it is a shame we are divided as a nation yet again with people on each side believing so strongly their side "won". All people can do is state the facts and it is hard to say the Brexit party did not do well and that Labour (and the Tories) did very badly.

I wonder do they truly believe it?

Or is it spin copying the example of Alistair Campbell?

Alastair Campbell was talking very convincingly and emotionally about his depression last week in a series about MH. I was almost sorry for him, but he's back on form again now, with his delusional spin utterings about Brexit. Maybe it's part of the condition...

I found the programme on his depression interesting.

I can see one half of my family in him. I don't hate the guy by any means.

Lib Dems / Greens not as many seats = they won.

Since they greatly increased their numbers, yes, it's a most definite win for them.
Since Farage only took 4 seats more than the UKIP vote, which is the ticket he and a few of his chums were elected on last time, they didn't actually do better than the Greens, who also got 4 more seats.

One of the major problems with current politics is this desire to see democracy through the lens of 'winners and losers'.

The reality is we all lose if we are unable to find a way forward which involves cooperation.

The problems we currently are deeply rooted in the language of 'winning and losing' because of the psychological impact of that. It makes people much more entrenched in thinking and unable to see things from another perspective because they become 'the enemy'.

I think it is unhelpful to frame the results from Thursday in this way.

We need to be looking at the whole picture and how we haven't moved on from the result at all. We have to be aware that the way areas voted is highly motive by affluence, education and class.

There are cultural divisions, economic disadvantage and willful blindness which are not being talked about and not being addressed because its all about winning and losing.

I find this thread frustrating. It helps nothing.

I agree. This is the problem MPs have as they disagree so strongly not only within their own parties with each other on the Brexit issue but also between the parties. It is why remainers May, my Tory MP and I felt the Withdrawal Agreement was the best compromise of all the awful choices. However that seems unlikely to be passed so we may be heading for an October crash out without a deal under a new Tory leader.

I thought votes were for ‘remain’ parties too.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48403131

*more votes, that should be

Stillpinching

NoYo I haven't seen anyone claiming green/libdem won, but that remain won over leave. Because despite the mental gymnastics some leavers are performing this was a one issue, soft referendum and the amount of people voting for unambiguously pro-remain parties for other reasons will have been vanishingly slim.

Its interesting that you claim mental gymnastics by one side yet are performing them so that your side can "win".

Neither side won. posting variants of the same graphic and dismissing 20+% of the vote doesn't make your point.

Very broad brush of the BBC; I'd rather hear Professor Curtis of Strathclyde's analysis than look at a primary school style bar graph!

It makes no real sense treating it as a second referendum on Brexit but it's a nice tweetable table so they've used the data that way. Ok but I'm not falling for it personally.

For example up to a third of SNP supporters at the last general election were for Brexit. If they went to vote in these EU elections they will have voted SNP in my experience of them. Very loyal folk.

Then there will be Lib Dem voters who are for Brexit to be followed through upon and who don't want a people's vote..I may be married to one, lol. I noticed they were not using Bollocks to Brexit in the literature we received, wise indeed.

100% with you, RedToothBrush.

rosemary I agree that Prof Curtis's analysis was good and clear.

I find this thread frustrating. It helps nothing.

RedToothBrush what about the vast majority of Brexit threads on which leavers are sneered at and disparaged?
Do you find them frustrating? Maybe you think they are perfectly reasonable.

Actually I've said many times about what I think about that. I think there is an intellectual snobbery at play. I also think there is a anti intellectual problem too.

In a sense they are two groups speaking completely different languages and they just don't understand each other.

It doesn't mean that neither has something meaningful and very valid that is useful.

Indeed in the heated discussions I've had with strangers on the subject locally, once you get past the leave/remain stuff and into what's driving you either way, you find yourself agreeing more than disagreeing!

There is a real communication barrier that's been put up that has been made worse by Brexit by aggrievating differences that occur along the generational/ educational/ class fractures in society.

We can not escape the political realities of Brexit. They are not just about what Brexit will look like but also about what caused Brexit. Both sides have failed to tackle both. We can't move forward until we do tbh. The problem will just get worse.

I heard someone in the radio this morning saying that assuming 80% of the Conservative voters were leavers and 40% of the Labour vote were it came out at 53% voting for remain. I’ll see if I can find out who it was.

I heard someone in the radio this morning saying that assuming 80% of the Conservative voters were leavers and 40% of the Labour vote were it came out at 53% voting for remain.

Arguments like this are pointless. Anyone can assume anything they like to get the result they prefer.

“Arguments like this are pointless. Anyone can assume anything they like to get the result they prefer.”

Of course. But some assumptions are made on a background of knowledge. And Farage is all over the media with his assumptions......

Arguments like this are pointless because this is the internet and nobody will ever change their mind about anything so it's just shouting at each other really.

“I heard someone in the radio this morning saying that assuming 80% of the Conservative voters were leavers”

I find these assumptions odd because I live in a Conservative borough of London, yet 77% here voted Remain. The 23% who voted Leave were invariably over 65 years of age. In fact, I’ve genuinely never met a local-ish person who voted Leave. All the bankers and entrepreneurs around here (and theres a lot of them) are the most vehement supporters of Remain!
Where do these pro-Leave Conservatives actually live and who are they? (Apart from the obvious suspects in Parliament obviously).

IIRC in the actual referendum, 60% of Conservative voters voted leave.

So somewhere between 60- 80% of Tories are Leavers. Allocate 3 of their 4 seats to Brexit supporting parties. 60% of Labour are Remain and allocate 6 of their 10 seats to Remain parties. What do you get? 7 apiece to add to the 29 for Brexit and 29 for Remain i.e. yet another expression of the stalemate the country is in.

Eventually something will happen - the passage of time will see to that, but I am not going to dare predict what.

It is a reasonably even split but I still think if there was a 2nd referendum leave would still be marginally ahead. Despite a lot of remainers thoughts, some leavers would vote for other parties because they have other issues they care more about than leave or remain. If it is just a question of a leave remain vote they would then vote leave.