First Date, who pays?

[DreamsOfDownUnder]

So I'm going on a first date on Sunday evening for some food and drinks.

I'm planning on going dutch... I think?

What are people's opinion, man/woman pays/go dutch or do we pay for what we've had.. It's been a while since I've been one!

Really? How interesting. The waiter/waitress test no longer applies then

Thinking about this some more, are you equating equal division of the bill with rudeness/abuse of waiting staff?

Jesus is this still going.

@HelenaDove

I'm that man that said I 'expect' you to have had a haircut in the last 6 weeks, (although I did clarify that was just my baseline preference, which you conveniently ignored) . I only used that number because as a man, 6 weeks is a long time between hair cuts, and your hairstyle will change hugely in that time. I have no idea what a common interval between cuts is for a woman, but rest assured all I meant is you have a hair cut, full stop.

Aa for women that can't afford to get their haircut because they had a bill to pay, should they not go on a date? What about men, can they not go on a date if they have bills to pay too? Especially as they are expected to pay the entire bill. What if the woman is so poor she doesn't have hot water, or soap. It's cool just to go on a date having put no effort in at all?

I obviously can't speak for women, but when I've had no money, I wasnt going on dates. Luckily it wasnt long term, and I can't speak for long term poverty.

Im fed up of so called feminists denying other womens economic reality.

Yes, because men never get poor or imporished.

My economic reality 20 odd years ago when I graduated was of someone with student loans, a bank overdraft and generally piss poor as I had just paid a deposit to live I some fleapit of a house share in a ropey part of town. My diet largely consisted of pasta, baked potatoes and packed lunchs for work. Apart from a newish suit for my grad job my wardrobe was pretty much old clothes from my uni days. Expectations back then was the guy picked up the tab for a first date. I didn't date because I could not afford to take someone out.

“@Pa1oma I remember from another thread that your husband asked your father's permission to propose to you. And that you approve of this.

You shld be a bit more honest about your general view of relationships between men and women.

In your world, women are absolutely wholly owned subsidiaries of their husbands or fathers. That's the perspective from which you believe that men should pay for women on dates. Because they are buying them.”

What are you on about now Kennehora? Utter madness.

Pa1oma

You have also stated

As if any woman in their right mind would go out with a man they weren’t interested in, just for a free dinner.

Which is just untrue, some women do this and do quite well out of it.

I just can't believe this much thought goes into who pays. No wonder everyone on mumsnet is so fucking miserable all the time.

@HelenaDove "Really? How interesting. The waiter/waitress test no longer applies then".

Wow your values are really messed up if you think lack of respect is the same as not paying for the food that you ate.
I wouldn't expect a date to pay for my bill, but I would expect a date to respect me and to respect the people who are providing us a service. That is one core value.
If you think it is ok for you to have preconceptions of men who wouldn't pay your bill due to bad experiences, so it also ok for men to have preconceptions due to bad experiences with gold diggers and prefer to split the bill. At least they are still paying for what they ate.

I just can't believe this much thought goes into who pays

People are thinking about it because it’s the topic of discussion. I’m sure you’re not expecting people are sitting considering the question for years on end!

No wonder everyone on mumsnet is so fucking miserable all the time

What would make you happier?

Sorry to come on again, but just catching up and this also stood out -

Bluntness, a poster commented -

“I'm a single parent who pays for everything but I'm absolutely old school in that I think a man should 'take out' a woman”

So, straight off, your question to her was -

“If you had the disposable income and there were no constraints would you still feel the same?”

First of all, why do you immediately assume she has a constrained disposable income? Secondly, why would you think her attitude has anything to do with money?

Maybe she looks for a certain attitude in men? It’s so sad that people don’t understand this.

To try and illustrate this in another way - if you can appreciate a man who will eg. go to the bar for you; open doors for you or pull your chair on a date, it’s not actually about bars or doors or chairs is it? No man actually thinks you can’t manage these things, but nevertheless, they will make this gesture anyway because it’s perceived as respectful to you as a woman, civilised and gentlemanly. It’s exactly the same with getting the bill. He doesn’t think you are unable to pay. It’s a gesture which is part of a certain integrity in men.

It’s a real shame that so many women get so defensive about this kind of thing. It seems to provoke so much anxiety in some posters in here, so all they can do is resort to the usual stereotypes that all such behaviours are indicative of misogyny, the 1950 are calling, blah blah. This is simply not true. In fact, I have found the total opposite.

I genuinely can’t imagine any man I know who wouldn’t expect to pay on a first date - or treat you as much as possible for that matter (to be fair, they’re all married, but this is just basic stuff to must men). None of them are misogynists in any shape or form. They look after their families and are the last men to disrespect women in any realm of life.

“Gentlemanly” is such an outdated concept.

Just be a decent person in general to everyone you come across. Don’t modify your behaviour because of what’s between someone’s legs and make out it’s a desirable trait.

Well that’s your view Jacques. You’re welcome to it, of course. But I think it’s naiive to try and persuade yourself that men respond to women in the same way as they do other men in all areas of life. They don’t and this is obvious. Not are women looking for exactly the same things in men as they are in other women.

MN can’t tell people how they should feel - you “should” this, or you “should” that. It’s like the mind-control police on here.

Pa1oma

Those gestures are a sign of someone with good manners. Why do you think that only a man can do them.

If you walk through a door ahead of someone do you just let the door swing back and hit them in the face?

As for paying on the first date or paying in general - really just where do you get off? Why do you think it is ok for a man, who might be struggling as much or more than a woman, to have to spend his money on her, or not date? Just why? And don't spout the rubbish about being gentlemanly. Good manners should apply to everyone. Treat people with good manners and respect.

Expecting to be paid for and treated all of the time simply because you are a woman is not being a decent human being. It's a sign of nothing more than that woman taking advantage of another person.

They don’t and this is obvious

Which is why, in my opinion we need to stop pandering to outdated stereotypes.

Firstly, why would you think that men behaving in a certain way towards women is incompatible with men or women having good manners in general? This makes no sense? If anything, the one reinforces the other.

As I explained yesterday, I have never done internet dating and I never casually dated particularly when I was younger either. I accept that these days things may well be different - eg. If you’re having coffees with several men via Tinder it’s all very casual and I wouldn’t really care who paid in those circumstances.

I’m not interested in anyone else’s money and never was. As I said, when I was dating DH, I made sure I paid for things via other means - eg. I could book the theatre ahead or cook dinner etc - all sorts of things. But I could still appreciate the way he behaved towards me, as distinct to the way he would behave towards other men.

I’ve no idea why I even need to explain this tbh.

Firstly, why would you think that men behaving in a certain way towards women is incompatible with men or women having good manners in general? This makes no sense? If anything, the one reinforces the other

You wouldn’t use the word “gentlemanly” to refer to a show of decent manners towards another man. Its use tends to be synonymous with “chivalrous” which is behaviour especially towards women.

Behaving in a decent way, showing good manners isn’t desirous as a “gentlemanly” set of behaviours. It is a desirous trait full stop!

I think some people on here seem to need everything to be kind of “gender-neutral” or something? Would I be right?

I’d hate that personally. I think it would quash human sexuality, freedom of expression and just suck the air out of life.

I can easily distinguish a misogynist from a decent man. They come in many guises.

I think some people on here seem to need everything to be kind of “gender-neutral” or something? Would I be right?

Well that depends. Do you mean we should treat people differently because of their sex?

Firstly, why would you think that men behaving in a certain way towards women is incompatible with men or women having good manners in general?

Because why would men have to behave in a certain way towards women? Whatever behaviour you want men to display to women you should equally want women to display towards men.

Would you accept it if men were saying that women need to behave in a certain way that was detrimental towards women?

Is it ok for a man to say, for example, that once married a woman has to give up her job and become a housewife? Because that is as equally old fashioned as saying a man needs to pay on a date.

We should have moved away from all of these out dated stereotypes by now.

My son is on an average wage but lives away from home and has to support himself. His girlfriend does the same job for the same wage but she lives at home with her parents and pays a small amount of housekeeping. So are you honestly saying that it's right for him to pay for dates, or be labelled as a tight wad, despite her having way more disposable income than him every month? So he can only see her when he can afford to pay?

@Pa1oma so you would love gender pay gap at work. In your case, it actually makes sense if men need to show how chivalrous they are and meet all the expectations of the women they date.

Decomposing - your son can do whatever he wants.

Jacques - yes I do think there are some instances where you should treat people differently because of their sex. Absolutely. I think this is perfectly natural and human nature and if you pretend otherwise it’s delusional.

But you can’t say this on MN because heads start spinning. If you let a man pay for you and understand why he might want to do this, then apparently you are dictating that all womenshouod become housewives, or some such nonsense.

Or the gender pay gap - yes I knew that would come up next.

@Pa1oma of course it would. You can't pick and choose what suits you.

yes I do think there are some instances where you should treat people differently because of their sex. Absolutely. I think this is perfectly natural and human nature and if you pretend otherwise it’s delusional

Of which surely you cannot be suggesting paying for a date is one. Unless there’s some correlation between paying a bill and penis?

If you let a man pay for you and understand why he might want to do this, then apparently you are dictating that all womenshouod become housewives, or some such nonsense

You mean like it was suggested that going Dutch is a red flag and will mean you end up in pecuniary disaster when you’re married.

What I am saying is that people are all individuals who are all free to relate to the opposite (or same) sex in whatever way they want. Everyone should be able to express themselves in terms of their emotional needs and their sexuality in whatever way makes sense to them.

If you need to be the same as your partner and can’t tolerate any distinctions based on gender, then this is absolutely fine. You will gravitate towards someone who meets your needs, no doubt.

If you are gay or bi, then you will instinctively gravitate to whatever relationship permutations come naturally to you.

If you like a certain male - female dynamic that allows you to express yourselves in particular ways, then you will be drawn towards a man or woman that complement your instinctive behaviours. You see differences as a strength, not something to be ashamed of or quashed. You still balance each other out, just in a different way.

I can’t understand why anyone needs to feel threatened by the way other couples might relate to each other.