To think a not-insignificant proportion of MNers genuinely have no clue...

[TheTitOfTheIceberg]

...what it's like to not have much money?

This is not a TAAT but it's been prompted by a recent comment on a thread which was just the latest in a long line that make it clear that what some people take for granted is far beyond the reach of others. Which in itself is fair enough and hardly profound - this is a website with members across the whole economic spectrum, after all. But I've observed many times that there are some posters who, when the OP says "I can't afford X" seem downright disbelieving. "But it's not that expensive / it's only the equivalent of [some other luxury item which the OP is also very unlikely to be able to afford]".

Or when an OP is posting in bits - and clearly is in quite straitened circumstances - about their DP being an arse, someone will invariably post "book a night in a hotel/weekend away with your friends at a bloody spa no doubt and leave him with kids" without any apparent recognition that for some of us, a night in a hotel or a weekend away is something that has to be carefully budgeted for if it's even financially feasible at all.

It's not the disparity in incomes between posters that bothers me; there are plenty of no doubt comfortably-off MNers who post sensitively and helpfully in all kinds of situations. But there is a tranche who just seem oblivious to their financial privilege or to the fact that some of us are living hand to mouth, month on month with nothing left over after rent/mortgage, essential bills and food have been paid for, and then seem incredulous when we don't pay for, as standard, the goods or services they take for granted.

AIBU to find this both irritating, and an illuminating (sometimes bonkersly endearing) window into a world I will never inhabit, on my below-national-average salary with my disabled-and-no-longer-able-to-work DH?

But it’s from ICELAND. All that awful processed cheap food for POOR PEOPLE.

Some people are poor: skint poor, no money. People get ill, people lose their jobs, or they can't get to a job they could do because they can't afford to buy the car that would get them there and it's too far to cycle.

There are also people who are poor, or poorer than they need to be, due to bad choices. I grew up in such a family: my father was bone idle, spent money like water (to quote my long-suffering mother), and there was just never any spare cash. I vowed that my adult life would be different, and thank God it is.

There are definitely people on MN who have either never been skint, or have no imagination, or have forgotten what it was like. I've met the odd one like that in RL - the woman who moaned to her (genuinely) skint brother about how broke they were, having just shelled out five grand for a holiday.

The thing is, to be fair, after you’ve spent all your money on something you are skint aren’t you? Whether that’s a £5k holiday, a new boiler, a new car... unless you could comfortably afford that all in one go then you will be tight for a few weeks / months afterwards.

I don’t think people who say things like that necessarily mean it to claim they live in poverty

Like the posters up threads, I too have worked two-three jobs at a time to avoid repossession. I could have made the choice not to. I could have boo-hoo-hoo-ed when I was made redundant, but I didn't , I went straight into agencies and did some really shitty, low paid, arse end menial jobs until I made a successful job application that made use of my skill set. I made the choice to keep working and not SAH. I could have made a different choice. I made a choice not to drink, smoke, get spray tans, shellac or credit cards for foreign holidays, or lay out hundreds for status symbol dogs. I made the choice to invest in education. So you see, @TIT we all make choices, every day. My choices are different to yours. I'm ultra conservative, I cant stand the thought of returning to those days of the choice of commuting or food. You obviously have different priorities. People who have been truly poor will try to claw their way out. I did everything humanly possible to keep a job, a house and a pension.

Err, yeah. Ditto love. Pretty much word for word. So our choices aren't so different, and you're not so superior as you seem to think. What I took exception to was your sneering to another poster that "normal" people use financial advisors, with no apparent concept that in some cases, no matter how hard one works or how sensible one's choices, £800 a year on something that's not mortgage, food and basic bills is beyond some people. A fact you still seem unable to grasp.

But everyone on mn is poor because, don't forget, £80k a year isn't a good salary

Drives me bonkers op, some people's definition and understanding of poor is baffling. I'm comfortable but I absolutely understand not everyone is!

I remember an article doing the rounds a couple of years back about a couple who claimed that ‘couldn't live’ on a combined £90k salary (mainly because they still couldn’t afford private school). Not surprisingly, they got slated in the comments, and in more than one thread on here.

However, some woman started a thread in disbelief that these people were being criticised. ‘Really?! Is it that hard to understand that they might want to send their child to private school?’ Completely ignoring the fact that this couple had actually said £90k wasn’t enough to live on - not ‘I can’t afford every little luxury’.

@ifCakesHappens Tue 21-May-19 17:19:05
I do get annoyed at those who say you can’t possibly survive in London on less than 60k when I and Dh and kids survive fine on less than half

well, good for you, but looking at the cost of rental or buying in central London, I couldn't! I had to leave London because we just couldn't afford it. Less than 30k income with no benefits, no help is very tight in London for most of us.

London is a lot bigger than zone 1.

Lots of misconceptions about living in London here too- generally you only live in central London if you’re rich or in social housing- and social housing is the reason why you can easily live there on £30k.

OP ... I completely agree with your original post and thought it very fair.

The lack of empathy and imagination shown by some on here towards anyone less fortunate is both mind boggling, upsetting and worrying. It shouldn't matter that you have no personal experience of poverty .... with a bit of common sense, a bit of thought and a bit of sensitivity, most people should be able to appreciate at least some of the difficulties that brings. Yet I've seen remarks so unbelievably crass and/or irrelevant I don't know if it's head in the clouds thoughtlessness (at best) or malice (at worst).

I do think there might be a political angle to some of the crassness related to posts about money struggles. There's certainly a sector of society who prefer to blame 'the poor' for their woes because it alleviates them from taking any wider social responsibility by recognising there isn't a level playing field, and trying to fix that. Which, possibly explains such comments as 'getting the money from somewhere' or 'getting a better paid job' as the catch all answer .... ergo, if you 'refuse' to do either you only have yourself to blame for having no money and should therefore shut up.

There are lots of situations in life I've thus far been lucky enough not to have encountered, but it's still stark staring obvious to me that most people would probably find them challenging. We don't need to have experienced something ourselves to be emoathetic. Since we all need and use money on a regular basis, I don't understand why some find it seemingly impossible to accept that others can literally have no money through no fault of their own .... there are a multitude of circumstances I can imagine would lead to that position, and a multitude of difficulties in trying to improve your situation. Why can't other people employ their brains in similar fashion? Unless you are incredibly thick and/or live in a cave you must surely have seen first hand, or read about, poverty? ..... in the media, online etc. Why do people think that in contrast to 10 years ago, or even 5 for that matter, practically every single supermarket now has a food bank collection point?

I refuse to believe that there are very many, if any, cave dwellers or genuinely stupid people amongst the unsympathetic group the OP is referring to ...... which is why their attitude worries me so much because the only other explanation is a very nasty streak towards an ever increasing part of society who've been let down in so many ways in recent years (housing crisis, low/stagnant wages, austerity etc etc etc). But apparently, they're 'not trying hard enough' going by some of the stuff I see on here. Such a horrid 'I'm alright Jack' attitude.

Brilliant post catsmother.

I live In London and I don’t live in social housing and nor do I get benefits- like most people I know. But we do live in what many would call cramped accommodation. Many people I know are bringing up families in a studio flat or at best a one-bed flat.

Whilst some have no idea, plenty do and they are trying to help - if two of you are working 40 hours each a week with 2 kids on a low wage, perhaps spending that £20 on a cleaner rather than wine and takeaway is a good idea if it helps their mental health for instance, it's worth working the over time even.

I've lived on very low incomes and may have to again now my marriage is ending, you can forget though I admit but prioritisation and circumstances means we spend it differently - I can sell up and buy outright if I move north for instance, so my modest income would go further

Which, possibly explains such comments as 'getting the money from somewhere' or 'getting a better paid job' as the catch all answer .... ergo, if you 'refuse' to do either you only have yourself to blame for having no money and should therefore shut up.

This completely.

It’s the same with “prioritising”. If you are skipping meals, not putting the heating on and the likes then you can’t prioritise pension/contents insurance/savings by doing those things because you already are.

I do think a lot of people often forget that choice, even shitty choices, are a luxury some people simply don’t have.

I always remember a friend of my Nana’s telling her to “turn the heating down a notch or two” and to walk instead of taking the car so we could have a holiday when we already didn’t have the heating on ever, the car had been sold already and my Grandad (by then in his 70s) had two jobs to just fund basic living for the four kids they’d had to unexpectedly take on.

I should imagine that many of us who are now comfortable, if not actually rolling, remember very well what it's like to be broke, hunting down the side of the sofa, etc.
Dh and I certainly do.
Which is one reason I can't understand some MNers' cavalier attitudes to food waste, among other things.
Old habits die hard.

As for gaily recommending spa days, hotel stays, etc., you just have to hope that such people never have to find out the hard way what it's like to be seriously hard up.
Or if you're feeling 😈, maybe you'd wish they would!

That's life though op.

And yes many people do lack imaginative powers. Me included, I just happen to know what having very little money in the UK is like. My experience is out of date though, so no doubt i could put my foot in it inadvertently.

(I recently took to waking at 3 am with anxiety, i mentioned it to dh and he said, "Doesn't everybody?"
Well no! I've pretty much always slept soundly and thought little of it before now.)

YANBU

I agree op, but there is also an attitude of 'competitive' poverty on here, who can I have it the worst. It's just as distasteful and unnecessary imo.

There's a massive difference between not being able to afford to live in London and not being able to afford to live at the standard you'd like.

Many people do live in London on very low income. Yes, accommodation will likely be in an undesirable part and likely it's smaller than someone's home in the north, but they still afford to live.

Scrimping and saving to pay for education when in reality it's above your means - live within your means, don't complain you're poor when it's your choices that have put you there that are within your control.

I suggest you go see a solicitor .

YANBU at all, OP. Those kinds of comments only serve to highlight the massive inequalities in this country.

I actually just think it's a way of boasting.

I try and read the OPs post carefully because when people say they can't afford X it usually means they literally do not have the money - not that they can shuffle the shopping list and leave a few items out but they just do not have the cash. You want to give practical helpful advice rather than breezy suggestions. I work in finance now
but before I made the career move I worked part time in a shop, lived alone and was so skint the electric used to get turned off. I just wish I could be more helpful to some of the posts I see on here - I don't take money for granted and know I'm lucky to be able to pay my bills each month!

I don`t think it is boasting Lavallen I think there are people holding it together in awful financial circumstances sometimes, yet still finding the time to help others on here.

My personal favourite is 'surely' - 'Surely you have savings/credit/access to money' 'Surely you have someone (who can provide free childcare to your SEN teenager or 2 toddlers)' 'Surely you can move (with a chest of brass buttons).'

Many people I know are bringing up families in a studio flat or at best a one-bed flat.

Yet on MN, a woman was considering buying a 2-bed flat with no garden or outside space in central London with two primary and secondary school boys and you'd have thought she was suggesting selling them into slavery. 'Surely you can't do that!' It was near a park and she had mental health problems that made her nervous and anxious to drive and they were going to be able to walk and use public transport. 'Surely you can cycle!'

Because no one grows up in a flat with no outdoor space! OMG! It's all quiet cul-de-sacs with fields or forest nearby for 'playing out' because of course, you're not allowed to use your back garden for that as it annoys the neighbours who want to sit in silence in there, doing the Times crossword or discussing Joseph Brodsky.

It’s unreasonable to expect people to assume that posters are poor unless otherwise specified. People are just giving advice which they would consider reasonable.