To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

@Ravenclawclassof84

In your case the system worked well. That's the type of system that I have been advocating for.

The latest ideas seem to be asking for the process to be shortened though with procedures carried out within 2 weeks of initial contact, self referral so no contact with GP and less input from hcps.

Sorry - reading BPAS website, they're mainly an abortion care provider as well as contraception advice. I just recall they were there to help women make informed decisions about their next steps.

You realise that already happens right?

I suppose you would also support women being told that, factually, abortion is safer for women than giving birth?

Because part of the consent procedure should be outlining all of the alternatives.

Ah!

We're getting somewhere.....

What would the alternatives to an abortion be then?

It should also be about explaining all of the risks and the implications so in your example saying risk of bleeding or infection is only a part of the story. What are the implications of the bleeding ( needing a hysterectomy for example if they can't control it). That's the part that I see it failing - the failure to explain the implications.

THEY DO.

I suppose you would also support women being told that, factually, abortion is safer for women than giving birth?

Yes of course I would. I also think women should be told about the risks of pregnancy and childbirth - obviously before they get pregnant.

What would the alternatives to an abortion be then?

Not just the alternatives to abortion but the alternative procedures too.

And yes, the alternatives to abortion. Not in a " can I change your mind" way but in a way that just outlines that they don't have to do this if they don't want to.

And if they do already explain everything fully that is great. I hope they continue to do so and that drs in every other specialty learn to do it too.

Not just the alternatives to abortion but the alternative procedures too

This happens at the previous appointments.

You discuss your problem, your doctor suggests a treatment, or a test procedure, and this is when you discuss alternatives.

When you are sign the consent form you sign a consent form for a specific procedure.

But I think this is going somewhere else.

So basically what you want them to do then, is stuff they’re already doing.

Oh, I like the Erdem dress.

“Oh, I like the Erdem dress.”

I don’t- I think it’s too long and too high necked. And I don’t think the espadrilles go.

But anyway.

I’m not pointing the finger at anyone, but in my long experience “more information” “more counselling” “more time to think” “more time to consider the alternatives” actually means as many delays as possible so it gets too late, or the woman gets steamrollered into changing her mind. Like the calls for women to have to actually look at their scan before they can have the procedure.
SPUC but with a degree in media studies.

I didn’t at first but now I do.

It’s sort of high garden casual with a side of flounce.

Didn’t notice the espadrilles.

Sorry for the derail OP.

"nor do i- its been a fantastic derailing."

It has indeed. I'm quite impressed. In the old days, abortion threads just used to turn into shouting about murdering babies. Now, it seems you get worn down with several pages of hinting and insinuating about "wouldn't it be awful if they didn't explain the potential side effects of abortion to women? I've never had one so it's great if they explain all that, but wouldn't it be really bad if they didn't?".

ChardonnaysPrettySister

What previous appointment will there be under the new proposals though? From reading it seems like there will only be 1 appointment - on the day of the procedure.

And no Bertrand I don't want people disuaded. Why do you think less care should be taken over this procedure than any other medical procedure? Why do you think that women having this deserve less care than any other patient, just because you want them rushed through?

I need a knee replacement but drs deem it unsafe to do it. Should I just rock up at an operating theatre and demand that they do it immediately because my body my choice?

It's progress and in women's best interests then to operate on them without explanation then is it?

That sounds progressive.

And if they do already explain everything fully that is great. I hope they continue to do so and that drs in every other specialty learn to do it too.

Having a child who has a lot of medical appointments I would say other depts could learn from the way the staff you see for a termination deal with you.

Apart from the bad apple I encountered with the scan I’d say that the staff I spoke too were actually really good at treating me as an adult with a brain. As opposed to other doctors who are a bit guilty sometimes of not explaining because people don’t need to know or wouldn’t understand.

Maybe the best option is to sell the tablets in Tesco? Then anyone and everyone could buy them no questions asked? Don't put any safeguards in place at all. After all, every woman has made up her mind, knows all she needs to know etc.

Why not? Surely anything more than that is controlling.

@DecomposingComposers

@Ravenclawclassof84 - The latest ideas seem to be asking for the process to be shortened though with procedures carried out within 2 weeks of initial contact, self referral so no contact with GP and less input from hcps.

None of that prevents a woman making a properly informed decision though. As far as I'm concerned, the earlier the abortion takes place the better. The later it goes, the more complicated it becomes.

Some women need to be supported in making the right choice. Realistically, that requires some form of counselling. I would have no problem with counselling being compulsory, provided it is non-directive and its aim is to ensure women are supported in making the decision that is best for them. Sure, it will mean some women who don't require any help in making that decision having to go through unnecessary counselling but I would expect properly trained professionals to be able to gauge how much support the woman needs, so for those, the session would be short and to the point.

While I fully support every woman's right to choose, I think it is reasonable to provide a service that ensures it is a true choice, even if that process is a bit of a nuisance for those who are definite in their choice. However, it would be completely unacceptable for this process to delay women's access to abortion or to try and guide them towards a particular outcome.

However, it would be completely unacceptable for this process to delay women's access to abortion or to try and guide them towards a particular outcome.

I absolutely agree. But apparently holding these views makes you some kind of controlling monster fit only to appear in The Handmaid's Tale.

@DecomposingComposers - Maybe the best option is to sell the tablets in Tesco?

Many, many drugs are not available in Tesco, because you either need a prescription or because someone with training needs to oversee the dispensing.

@Isthisafreename

I know. I'm being facetious to some of the posters on here he seem to think that any restrictions, even when in place to ensure a patient's safety, are examples of control and hatred of women.

It seems as though they want abortion to be deregulated and entirely without medical input. Anything less than that is anti women.

No, what we’re arguing against is placing unnecessary stumbling blocks in the way of women’s access to abortion. You’ve been using the reactions of a minority to state that women need intervention into their decisions.

What you’ve been arguing for is already in place, what more is it that you want?

But I think this is going somewhere else.

I agree.

Interesting how a poster who continually protests that they are pro-choice is so in line with textbook anti-abortion tactics. We’ve had ‘regret’ something anti-abortion campaigners are told to emphasize, and now ‘informed consent’ another diversionary tactic from the anti-abortion lobby. But we’re supposed to believe that it’s just an amazing coincidence that that’s what Decomposed is rooting for too?!:

“If the (anti-abortion) activists have a Moses, it is David Reardon, whose 1996 book, “Making Abortion Rare,” laid out the argument that abortion harms women and that this should be a weapon in the anti-abortion arsenal. “We must change the abortion debate so that we are arguing with our opponents on their own turf, on the issue of defending the interests of women,” he wrote. The anti-abortion movement will never win over a majority, he argued, by asserting the sanctity of fetal life. Those in the ambivalent middle “have hardened their hearts to the unborn ‘fetus’ ” and are “focused totally on the woman.” And so the anti-abortion movement must do the same.
For anti-abortion activists, this strategy offers distinct advantages. It challenges the connection between access to abortion and women’s rights — if women are suffering because of their abortions, then how could making the procedure readily available leave women better off? It replaces mute pictures of dead fetuses with the voices of women who narrate their stories in raw detail and who claim they can move legislators to tears. And it trades condemnation for pity and forgiveness.

”Similar testimony has also been submitted in two cases that involve efforts to raise the standard for informed consent, which abortion providers must obtain from their patients. “There will be a great deal of litigation in this area,” says Roger Evans, Planned Parenthood’s senior director for public policy, law and litigation. “This is where they are headed.”
www.nytimes.com/2007/01/21/magazine/21abortion.t.html

Why is a talk with a counsellor (which is what I was suggesting) an unnecessary stumbling block?

And it's only just now that anyone has come forward and said "actually this does happen". Before that everyone was telling me that I was anti abortion, pro life etc.

Dottierichardson

If I were anti abortion would I have been repeatedly saying that I don't agree with time limits on abortions? And that is something that many people don't agree with.