To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

[lyralalala]

*already

[DecomposingComposers]

lyralalala

Because they are lying about what I said.

It isn't a misunderstanding, it was talking about a different scenario entirely - a woman continuing a pregnancy. To conflate that with abortion isn't a misunderstanding.

When you spoke about counselling being offered I took it to mean that - it is offered. If what you meant was everyone met with a counsellor, as another poster has just said happens, then I misunderstood.

[Isthisafreename]

@Decomposing Composers - And yes, the alternatives to abortion. Not in a " can I change your mind" way but in a way that just outlines that they don't have to do this if they don't want to.

I think that comes across as judgemental. Telling a woman that she doesn't have to do it if she doesn't want to suggests there is something wrong with the decision to abort.

I think the counselling process should allow the woman to tease out for herself what the correct decision is. For most, this will be a very quick process as they already know what they want. For others, it may take longer and may require more than one session for them to decide. The key is ensuring that the service women need is provided and tailoring it to individual women's needs.

It sounds like many of the women on this thread got that service, which is the way it should be. The service should be built into the process and should be done in a way that ensures women get to implement their choice and have the support they need to follow through, regardless of what that choice is.

My personal experience was a bit different. I had an abortion over 20 years ago for an ffa. I was offered no counselling at all or given any advice other than being told by the consultant "unless you have serious religious objections, I would recommend an abortion" and then being told he would be back in 30 minutes to see what we decided. We made the decision in a couple of minutes and any regret I feel is not for the abortion but that I ended up in a situation where it was necessary to abort a planned and wanted pregnancy.

[MaximusHeadroom]

So I have a diagnosis and know what the treatment is. Why can't I just go and have the surgery? Why can drs impose restrictions and control my access to that surgery? I should have bodily autonomy to access this treatment without drs exerting control over me surely?

Why are doctors restricting your access to medical treatment for an ailment they have diagnosed?!

This is how medicine works. I will do a comparison with gallstones to help you understand.

You have a condition (unwanted pregnancy / gallstones)

You go to the doctor who diagnoses you with (unwanted pregnancy / gallstones)

The doctor prescribes the course of treatment to resolve the problem (termination /gallstone removal)

The doctor books you an appointment with the necessary specialist (abortion clinic / surgeon)

The procedure is carried out.

Of course it is your right to keep your gallstones as lucky for you, gallstone treatment is not forced on people who don't want it.

Obviously you can't insist on a gallstone operation is you actually have constipation, but then you have to have an unwanted pregnancy to get an abortion too.

Does that help?

[DecomposingComposers]

So if a woman has been made to go there by a controlling partner do you not think anyone should mention that they don't have to go ahead?

Obviously how I am saying it is not how it should be said in the session but there are so many posts on MN from women saying they are pregnant but that DH partner is insisting they abort but they don't want to.

How should that be addressed? Or do you not think it should be? Is that a risk worth taking?

[Dottierichardson]

Before this thread gets totally derailed, can anyone suggest anything I can do to help support women's access to abortion? I'm UK-based but feeling so helpless for my female friends in the US right now, and I'm scared that the contagion might make its way over here in my daughter's lifetime. I want to do something but don't know where to start.

These articles/sites are good places to begin:

British Pregnancy Advisory Service campaign to change abortion laws in Northern Ireland - the BPAS runs a number of campaigns worthy of support and they make it very easy to take part, for the NI campaign you just fill in a few details and they do the rest:

www.bpas.org/get-involved/nor...

For a breakdown of the other campaigns they're running:

www.bpas.org/get-involved/cam...

And for the US links via this article:

How to protect abortion rights in Georgia and Alabama
www.nytimes.com/2019/05/15/op...

[Isthisafreename]

@BertrandRussell - in my long experience “more information” “more counselling” “more time to think” “more time to consider the alternatives” actually means as many delays as possible so it gets too late, or the woman gets steamrollered into changing her mind. Like the calls for women to have to actually look at their scan before they can have the procedure.

That's why we need to stay vigilant and continue to fight for women's rights to be protected. However, I think the way to do that is to take ownership of the process. Recognise that some women need help to make their decision. Design the process to facilitate that where required, while ensuring no obstacles are placed in women's way, either by delaying those who have decided or rushing those who haven't.

[DecomposingComposers]

Why are doctors restricting your access to medical treatment for an ailment they have diagnosed?!

Because I am too young to have a total knee replacement apparently and the risks that I need them done again are too high. Why isn't that my choice? It's my body so how come they get to choose how much pain they consider acceptable? How come they get to limit my choices for pain relief too whilst living with a condition that they refuse to operate on? Again, my body my choice, no?

[Stillonly8am]

Thank you, Dottie!

[WestBerlin]

You could, presumably, go private and pay for a total knee replacement.

[Isthisafreename]

@DecomposingComposers - So if a woman has been made to go there by a controlling partner do you not think anyone should mention that they don't have to go ahead?

No, I don't. I think a woman should be helped to reach her own decision. If she doesn't want an abortion, a properly trained counsellor should be capable of helping her to make that decision. Obviously if the woman says she doesn't want an abortion then she should be told there are other options but the woman should be leading the discussion.

[FrameyMcFrame]

www.asn.org.uk/

Support women who need to travel for safe abortion.

It's a fantastic organisation

[DecomposingComposers]

You could, presumably, go private and pay for a total knee replacement.

Nope. Still too young apparently. Plus I don't have thousands knocking about to pay for it.

Not right though is it? Why do they get to make that choice for me?

[WestBerlin]

My point about private is that you could theoretically access it.

I have never heard of doctors refusing to operate on/ replace knees based on age alone, rather they individually assess the level of pain and disability.

[DecomposingComposers]

Isthisafreename

I think we are saying the same thing.

Surely the concept of choice needs to be raised in order for the woman to realise that she has a choice and it is hers to make? What if she believes that attending means you have to go through with it? How would you address that?

[MaximusHeadroom]

So you have just made my point. They are not offering an ethical judgment on knee replacement surgery, they are saying that on their expert opinion it is not the best choice for you medically. They have given clear reasons for this. Whether or not you agree with the expert medical opinion is up to you.

If you have an unwanted pregnancy, the best medical course is getting an abortion. There is no other medical solution. It happens quickly because it is time sensitive.

You have the right to get it done privately. Something women in NI can't do.

[Stillonly8am]

Brilliant - thanks, Framey!

[WestBerlin]

The concept of choice is already addressed with women. That’s part of the preliminary consultation.

[MaximusHeadroom]

Is your issue that women can get access to abortions or that the NHS pays for it?

[DecomposingComposers]

WestBerlin

Well they are. I can't walk up stairs, have bone on bone but because I'm not even 50 they reckon that if I have it done now I will only get 10 years out of the 1st one and then need another and then that is it so they are refusing.

But again it is my body. As long as I understand the risks it should be my decision and not theirs.

[Cariadne]

For people who want to help American women please consider making donations to Planned Parenthood and the Southern Poverty Law Centre.

[lyralalala]

What if she believes that attending means you have to go through with it?

That is addressed throughout the process. Every step includes telling you that you can change your mind or delay.

[Cariadne]

Or for NI women, the Abortion Support Network

[DecomposingComposers]

MaximusHeadroom

Why does it matter whether they are refusing on ethical or medical grounds? The end result is the same - they are refusing my choice about my body.

They won't do it privately either.

So where is bodily autonomy there? It doesn't exist. It is controlled by drs.