To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

How about the fathers of unwanted pregnancies must submit to vasectomies. They can then bear the physical and mental scars for the rest of their lives. Oh and they should also pay a lifelong tax. And be the subject to much judgement and criticism whatever the circumstances.

WLmum

This would be ideal -( except in the case of rapists, castration).

But these men can continue to impregnate women willy-nilly (to coin a phrase) - theoretically seven a week - whereas a woman can only have one pregnancy a year. Yet they are never held accountable.

A woman may well regret her termination, key point is that she had a choice

missyB1

I agree about what is informed consent. I don't think many patients, regardless of procedure, are actually giving informed consent. There is still a very paternalistic approach in medicine.

“True informed consent also means talking about any other possible options, and ensuring he patient understands any long term impact of the treatment“
Really? Are you saying women can’t make up their own minds? Do you think the same discussions should be had with every pregnant woman?

“There is still a very paternalistic approach in medicine.”

I agree. The idea that women are incapable of making up their own minds is a manifestation of this.

Yabvvu
You think there should be abortion but for only those who are raped or victim of incest and it should be unpleasant.

Also how do you know those women sharing the memes don't know about the situation in Ireland? I've shared those memes and I know what's happening in Ireland. That's one of a reason to speak about the states and individual countries going backwards.

You keep helping the patriarchy keep us women down by telling us what we can do without our bodies.
Your body, your choice. My body my choice.

I agree. The idea that women are incapable of making up their own minds is a manifestation of this.

But consent for a medical procedure is more than just "do you want it done or not". Surely you understand that?

@pointythings

I am just saying that like many things in life, it's not a simple matter of black and white.

Anyway, thank you for taking the trouble to look at my other posts. How do you do that?

Are my posts about consent invisible?

Women are told what they are going to face before the procedure though. What more do you want? Scaremongering? Overstating risk so as to be offputting?

Also it is fairly black and white, it’s not a choice between ‘saving babies’ or abortion, it’s a choice between legal or illegal abortion.

This control of women's reproductive rights (whether or not to continue with a pregnancy) is very likely, if the decision is confirmed in a higher court, to roll out to other states, and THEN the next move will doubtless be to control women's sexual autonomy (who, when and how often) - pretty easy when you make freedom from pregnancy almost impossible.

We will be back to "girls who do it are sluts".

And as for women who regret having terminations - this is inevitable sometimes. Show me any decision about anything that someone, somewhere doesn't regret - there aren't any. I also think that many may regret the decision because other women make them feel like murderers - not because they made the wrong choice.

“But consent for a medical procedure is more than just "do you want it done or not". Surely you understand that?”
So exactly what do you think “informed consent” to an abortion should involve? In precise terms?

Hope this helps...

I think any government that was serious about bringing down the abortion rate, because they genuinely care deeply about life, would certainly be doing the following;

Ensuring free and widely available contraception, and education on it for all men and women from a young enough age.
Free and excellent quality healthcare for women and children (and men - everyone really).
Financial support/safety net for struggling families.
Massive amounts of campaigning for equality, educating and empowering young girls, educating boys to grow up to be men who respect and don't take advantage of women.

Not entirely convinced Alabama is a leading light in any of these areas.

As many people have pointed out before me, you can't really claim you are 'pro-life' if you stop caring what happens to that life the moment it exits a woman's body.

I say all of the above as someone who actually DOES believe a foetus has life, and who would never personally choose an abortion. But I think if societies took far better care of their people who are actually born already, then their would be far less people ending up in circumstances where they want/need an abortion.

(P.S. even in my utopia where all of the above are fulfilled, I am still not advocating for a ban, in case that isn't clear!)

Really are you saying women can’t make up their own minds
People undergoing any kind of medical treatment or procedure are generally able to make their minds up much better when they are fully informed and have had a chance for a full and proper discussion. That’s why consent moved on from just signing a form. Are you seriously suggesting that informed consent is unnecessary or insulting in some way?

So exactly what do you think “informed consent” to an abortion should involve? In precise terms?

Informed consent needs to cover the procedure, the risks of that procedure, including the effects of the complications and the treatment of the complications plus what the alternatives are.

This should be the same for any medical procedure. How is it informed consent if you just gloss over the risks and neglect to mention what might need to happen should those complications occur?

They tell you exactly what is going to happen in case of complications, down to the fact that they might need to remove your uterus if they cannot stop a haemorrhage.

Composer I agree with everything you have said about consent. I work in research in the NHS, and valid informed consent is drilled into us. And yes, I believe that consent isn't always handled as comprehensively as it should be, for a number of reasons.

However, consent should be the same for all medical procedures - comprehensive and clear. What must not happen is that consent for abortion shades into compulsory counselling for women asking for an abortion. Women should not be treated as less able to consent to a particular procedure over others. And that is why I am concerned about anything that takes that direction.

“How is it informed consent if you just gloss over the risks and neglect to mention what might need to happen should those complications occur?“

But they don’t.

BertrandRussell

I haven't had an abortion so I don't know how good the consent taking is. I dare say, as with anything, some places are better than others.

I do know that for other medical procedures that proper informed consent isn't obtained. The process is too quick, risks or complications are glossed over and I have never had the treatment of complications explained to me. Given my experience I have no reason to think that abortions are any different.

As part of the consent process drs are also meant to tell you about alternative options, even if they aren't available in that hospital - never had that either.

pointythings I agree that obtaining informed consent doesn't happen as it should.

Wrt counselling - I don't know the answer. I certainly don't want it to be off putting or a way to dissuade women but should it be as casual as just popping into a clinic and having it? As someone posted above, regret tends to occur in women that are forced into it or who rush into it having panicked. How do you try to protect those women? Or should we just accept that inevitably there will be some women harmed by this, but that is a price worth paying for the majority to get quick procedures?

I don't really understand where this conversation about consent is going. When I had an elective c-section, I was told about the possible medical complications (bleeding, infection, etc) and the statistical likelihood of them occurring, and I had to sign something. I would have assumed that the same would be done for an abortion, and I haven't actually seen any evidence on this thread that that's not the case?

I wouldn't expect the consent procedure for a termination to involve, say, quizzing the woman about whether she's really really sure she's considered all the options for keeping the pregnancy, and won't she regret it later, and maybe she could just take in ironing for some extra money? Because that's her business.

“I haven't had an abortion so I don't know how good the consent taking is. I dare say, as with anything, some places are better than others.”

Fuck’s sake. So you really have no idea what you’re talking about. Maybe they should delete the thread again.

I don't really understand where this conversation about consent is going

nor do i- its been a fantastic derailing.

i think most of us would like to see counselling more widely and speedily available on the nhs for all sorts of issues but not sure of the relevance here...

All abortion experiences are different but in my case, I had a conversation with my thankfully compassionate and understanding GP, then a long appointment at the local hospital with BPAS (who, I believe, are there to help women who wish to continue their pregnancy as well as those who wish to terminate). The appointment involved another discussion around what my wishes were, as well as the risks and what to expect at the procedure itself. I'm pretty sure the various nurses I spoke to would have picked up on factors such as abuse or being forced into the procedure (but of course they can't pick up everything). I was also really lucky that they kept the screen turned away from me when they did the scan, how horrible to let the woman view it. It was about another two weeks before I actually had the procedure. That would have given me plenty of time to change my mind if needed. I know I'm lucky compared to many but it certainly wasn't a quick chat followed by the procedure with no time to think about it, and to portray it as so simple is howlingly misinformed. Most people getting abortions know precisely what they're doing.

Because part of the consent procedure should be outlining all of the alternatives.

It should also be about explaining all of the risks and the implications so in your example saying risk of bleeding or infection is only a part of the story. What are the implications of the bleeding ( needing a hysterectomy for example if they can't control it). That's the part that I see it failing - the failure to explain the implications.