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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

999 replies

Bere111 · 19/05/2019 10:41

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
DecomposingComposers · 20/05/2019 10:05

. I thought it was a very very common occurrence after GA

Yes. Some crying as they come round. I haven't ever seen anyone saying they want their wisdom teeth back or wish they hadn't done it though.

BertrandRussell · 20/05/2019 10:05

Oh MNHQ- please don’t take it down! There is lots of good and useful stuff- even if the OP is not in good faith.

DecomposingComposers · 20/05/2019 10:06

SmileEachDay

I'm sure many do. But not everyone does. And I would not dream of telling anyone - even if they asked.

lyralalala · 20/05/2019 10:07

Women should also be able to refer themselves to clinics to save them waiting for a GP appointment and avoid any “negative attitudes from healthcare professionals

I also agree with this.

The surgery I'm registered with has two doctors that won't refer for abortion. They also have a ridiculously stupid appointment system that doesn't allow you to choose which doctor you see - you ring up, you get an appointment that day (assuming you get through) and only at an appointment can a GP book you an appointment for a specific other GP. Booked appointments are generally 5/6 weeks away as there is only two or three per day.

Had I not hit it lucky with the GP I got I'd have had to wait 5/6 weeks just to be referred.

teyem · 20/05/2019 10:07

Why would you do that MNHQ? It's a perfectly reasonable and important discussion.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 20/05/2019 10:07

I take it you mean that they explain what the treatment of a perforation is rather than just saying perforation is a risk?

They explain the risk and then they say how they will treat it, should it occur.

DecomposingComposers · 20/05/2019 10:09

@mnhq surely stopping the debate just fuels pro lifers argument though?

Why can't people discuss their views on the subject?

teyem · 20/05/2019 10:09

Are we just going to keep hiding all evidence that there is a run on women's rights and that there's no strength of opinion against it. It won't magic it away, one way or another but discussions like this are necessary.

AnyaMumsnet · 20/05/2019 12:45

Hi there all,

After some discussion at MNHQ, we think we were a bit premature in taking this down.

We still don't think OP was here with good intentions, and they won't be back, but as the thread had reached 800+ posts with lots of genuine discussion we've now reinstated it.

Smolo · 20/05/2019 12:53

👍🏻

SchadenfreudePersonified · 20/05/2019 13:05

when I tell a woman that I am so very sorry for the loss of her baby, I mean it, despite the fact that scientifically, it may have literally been a cluster of cells. Because I'm not a cunt. And when I support a friend through an abortion I respect her, I respect her decision and that it's her choice for her own body. Also because I'm not a cunt.

Totally this. ^

teyem · 20/05/2019 13:16

Someone said on Mumsnet, a few weeks ago now, that the statistics around rape convictions are so poor that, rape, to all intents, may as well be legal.

It's really reframed how I see misogyny,
which till then I felt kind of existed in a kind of amorphous mass in which angry men fell. But this renewed push against women feels clinical and coordinated.

I understand that for some pro-lifers it is the simple matter of a raw belief that life begins at conception. I wonder if you agree that your convictions are being used to harm women and their freedom more generally by those who simply hate women and how you feel about that overlap?

DarlingNikita · 20/05/2019 13:20

It's a rather begrudging reinstatement Grin but at least it's back.

WhatisFreddoingnow · 20/05/2019 13:46

Because AFAIK no church or other religious groups observes miscarriages in the way they would observe the death of a child.

Catholic - A baby who dies from a miscarriage can be given funeral rites for an unbaptized child (usually The Blessing of Parents after a Miscarriage or Stillbirth). A woman who has an abortion can also hold a funeral. Usually, this takes the form of a memorial service in church or a graveside blessing. I know there is usually a blessing for all miscarriages every year in most parishes. Generally, its not required that you have a funeral, but the option is open to you. I know a lot of parents find peace in it.

I just think that it is less common (but not unheard of) to hold any type of funeral for a miscarriage or abortion. A good informed sympathetic priest would be invaluable in these circumstance.

CatherineOfAragonsPrayerBook · 20/05/2019 13:54

Typical Mumsnet. Stifle debate because it upsets some peoples feelings. Is this a forum for grown ups or not?

CatherineOfAragonsPrayerBook · 20/05/2019 13:56

And for it's worth I agree with the OP. Debate is good

Pinkyyy · 20/05/2019 14:10

The deleting and reinstating of this thread is a joke.

Acis · 20/05/2019 14:35

I wasn’t the only one in the recovery area crying either. I thought it was a very very common occurrence after GA

Me too, after surgery on a broken arm.

RussianSpamBot · 20/05/2019 14:36

I'm just astounded to hear that the OP may not have been posting in good faith.

Gth1234 · 20/05/2019 14:55

@teyern

[quote]
Are we just going to keep hiding all evidence that there is a run on women's rights and that there's no strength of opinion against it. It won't magic it away, one way or another but discussions like this are necessary.
[/quote]

Abortion either attacks "womens' rights", or "unborn babies rights". They can't both be right. Maybe at some time in the future science will recognize sentience in foetuses, and find a way to allow them to grow outside a womb, and we will wonder how a civilized society could ever have countenanced abortion. Maybe science will discover that certain actions (eg smoking/drinking) in pregnancy are clearly harmful to unborn children, and laws will be passed to make it illegal.

The truth is, there are no "rights", just laws.

it's a matter of judgement as to whether the "rights" of the mother supersede the "rights" of the unborn. Or not. It just isn't an onslaught against women.

Isthisafreename · 20/05/2019 15:01

I haven't read the full thread but just wanted to respond to the comments on abortion regret.

Abortion regret is definitely a 'thing'. Some women end up hugely regretting their abortion, while others don't. However, the research out there shows that the women who regret their abortion are mainly women who do not make a true, informed choice about the abortion. Those who have made the decision that is best for them are much less likely to suffer abortion regret.

Those who suffer regret tend to be women who are pushed into the abortion by partners or parents. They are women who panic and don't think it through properly before having an abortion. They are women who are in abusive relationships where they really feel it would be unfair to bring a child into the equation. They are woman who are in dire financial straits and can't afford a(nother) child.

For some women in these types of circumstances, an abortion may be the best choice. For others, keeping the baby or adoption may be the best choice. However, if they don't get the opportunity to work through the decision, they may end up making a choice that is the wrong one for them.

What should be done is to provide women with a free, readily available counselling service that will help them to make the choice that is best for them. Only allowing abortion at a very early stage, only allowing abortion in very limited circumstances, forcing women to travel to access abortion, results, I believe, in increased abortion regret as women do not have the opportunity to make the best decision for them. If pro-lifers are so concerned about abortion regret, then they should be focusing on how to help women make the decision that is best for them to help to reduce its incidence. However, I suspect they prefer to use abortion regret as a stick to beat women into making the decision the pro-lifers think is the best one. They really don't care about the impact on women so long as they can promote their view that abortion is never right, except possibly in a few, very limited circumstances.

WestBerlin · 20/05/2019 15:21

We already know smoking and drinking are harmful to fetuses, but we respect the rights of women to be more than incubators and to make decisions that, yes, are detrimental to their pregnancies.

As far as sentience goes, consciousness is dependent on a certain level of brain development, so there is nothing to recognise in the time the vast majority of abortions are performed in.

Furthermore, even if ‘unborn babies’ were given rights in law, we already know it makes no difference. Women facing unwanted pregnancies will access abortion whether it’s legal or not, it’s not a question of saving babies, it’s a question of whether we want to accept women being maimed or killed in illegal abortions.

TheFastandCurious · 20/05/2019 16:17

As someone said on a previous thread, better to regret an abortion than regret having a child you were forced into having!

pointythings · 20/05/2019 17:02

Maybe at some time in the future science will recognize sentience in foetuses

Are you implying that foetuses actually have sentience but we are just not able to see it because we lack the scientific ability? That's a looooooong reach.

As for the smoking and drinking thing - you do realise that this will mean no woman of childbearing age will ever be allowed to smoke or drink, in case they might be pregnant? That's incubator territory again. But then that doesn't surprise me, given your previous posts.

missyB1 · 20/05/2019 17:12

Can I just say that informed consent is not just (or certainly shouldn’t be) a quick chat about the risks and signing a form. True informed consent also means talking about any other possible options, and ensuring he patient understands any long term impact of the treatment. These days It is supposed to be a process not a one off quick conversation. That’s why I think counselling beforehand would allow true informed consent.

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