To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

[MaximusHeadroom]

It really makes my blood boil, this hierarchy of abortion. Women have the right to autonomy over their bodies and that includes terminating a pregnancy. Why the hell should we have to have a backstory to our pregnancy which enables people to put us into a narrative of victimhood and make them feel better about the reasons behind our private choice?

To me it smacks of the same misogyny as around rape. Are you a sufficiently "innocent" victim for us to feel comfortable or were you wearing fancy knickers and drink 2 glasses of rosé that night? It is the same bullshit.

In addition, why do you feel the need to curtail other people's rights? If you don't believe in abortion, you are lucky that one will never be forced on you, even to save your life. Your rights are absolutely protected. Why the fuck do you feel the need to infringe on someone else's because they might not have the same values or lifestyle as you?

Apologies for the swearing, this topic gives me the rage.

[ChardonnaysPrettySister]

Why is a talk with a counsellor (which is what I was suggesting) an unnecessary stumbling block?

It's not an unnecessary stumbling block. There already is an appointment with a counsellor in the whole procedure.

[DecomposingComposers]

Women have the right to autonomy over their bodies

Yep I agree. So why do I have to be referred by my GP to hospital and then see a consultant who has the final say over whether I can have an operation? I have bodily autonomy. Why shouldn't I be able to turn up and tell them what I want and they just do it?

[Dottierichardson]

Women already talk with a counsellor, as numerous posters have made clear on this thread - you know the ones with actual experiences of abortion procedures as well as posters with partners in the medical profession. BUT I find it interesting that you have chosen to ignore these posters, despite earlier having made a huge fuss about how we should be listening to posters talking about abortion regret elsewhere on MN. It seems you only want us to listen to the experiences of posters who support your frail, highly manipulative case, and you're trying to steer us away from what doesn't suit you or fit with your unfounded claims.

[DecomposingComposers]

ChardonnaysPrettySister

So why am I being cast as the devil incarnate for daring to suggest something that is already done then?

Why am I now being accused of being anti abortion for agreeing with something that is already done?

[ChardonnaysPrettySister]

I give up.

[Dottierichardson]

Maybe you’re the one who needs counselling, because somehow you’ve taken on board and are doing a hard sell on the key passages of the anti-abortion playbook but you’re clearly in denial about that – at least that’s the only polite interpretation of what you're doing.

[Stillonly8am]

Hope you've got a real there, ChardonnaysPrettySister! I certainly have.

[DecomposingComposers]

Dottierichardson

I haven't ignored anyone. People have only said this is already happening in the last hour or so. Before that everyone was arguing against me and accusing me of being pro life. Including you a few minutes ago when you posted your "proof" of what you have decided that I am.

Strange how now you change your tune and say "it's already happening". Are you accusing everyone who works in abortion clinics of being anti abortion then because they are doing the thing that I agree with?

[BertrandRussell]

“If I were anti abortion would I have been repeatedly saying that I don't agree with time limits on abortions?”

Yes. HTH.

[MaximusHeadroom]

Yep I agree. So why do I have to be referred by my GP to hospital and then see a consultant who has the final say over whether I can have an operation? I have bodily autonomy. Why shouldn't I be able to turn up and tell them what I want and they just do it

I will assume that this is not a deliberate attempt to be obtuse.

This is not a correct comparison as it relates to diagnosing the problem and offering a medical solution.

The equivalent to what you are suggesting would be that if the Dr says you are too far along for the tablets and need a D&C, you can't insist on having the tablets.

Which you can't do

[pointythings]

Composer the problem is that some years ago, Nadine Dorries (rabid pro-life Tory) put forward a private members' bill to push for compulsory counselling for all women wanting an abortion, and for this counselling to be completely separate from the clinical process. It was a blatant attempt at enforced stalling in the hope of stopping women from going through with terminations. Fortunately the vote did not pass.

But that bill means that to my mind any suggestion of compulsory counselling or similar is suspect. I am in favour of high quality consent procedures. Anything more than that - no. Just no.

[WestBerlin]

So then your argument is that you have no argument, because what you want to happen already is happening. Right.

It’s not our fault that you failed to educate yourself before you posted your arguments in favour of apparently more intervention (delaying tactics) than that which occurs already.

[Dottierichardson]

Your version of counselling wasn't exactly the same though was it - you know the one you laid out earlier on this thread - consisting of numerous, over time sessions talking with midwives. A delaying tactic, as well as an intriguingly emotive choice for an appropriate counsellor. Also how would that work for a woman who's scraped together the money to get here from NI, would that include paying her hotel bills, providing fake documentation for her employers so she doesn't have to tell them why she's not in work or taking so much time off. Would that include travel costs, hotel bills? What about the many women who already travel within the mainland because facilities are far away? Your version of counselling is prohibitive and punitive.

[DecomposingComposers]

MaximusHeadroom

So I have a diagnosis and know what the treatment is. Why can't I just go and have the surgery? Why can drs impose restrictions and control my access to that surgery? I should have bodily autonomy to access this treatment without drs exerting control over me surely?

[Dottierichardson]

But that bill means that to my mind any suggestion of compulsory counselling or similar is suspect. I am in favour of high quality consent procedures. Anything more than that - no. Just no.

Absolutely. And thanks for the reminder about the Dorries's bill I'd forgotten about that, and it's exactly what I think is being argued for here albeit in an even more underhanded way.

[Meyouandbabytoo]

As per your original post, if I got pregnant now I should be forced to keep the baby. I'm married, know I want more children with my husband in the future (maybe 2/3 years), earn quite a lot, own my house with a relatively small mortgage and have a lifestyle where I could easily afford another child.

However, if I got pregnant now I would 100% have a termination. I had really bad pnd, only just starting to improve now my child is almost 1. I had a horrific pregnancy, felt like shit the entire time and was hospitalised twice. Even the thought of being pregnant at the minute makes me nervous and on edge. If it happened and I had to continue with the pregnancy I would no doubt have a breakdown. My mental health could not take it.
I use multiple forms of contraception and generally avoid sex when I could be fertile, but nothing is 100%.

[Stillonly8am]

Before this thread gets totally derailed, can anyone suggest anything I can do to help support women's access to abortion? I'm UK-based but feeling so helpless for my female friends in the US right now, and I'm scared that the contagion might make its way over here in my daughter's lifetime. I want to do something but don't know where to start.

[DecomposingComposers]

Dottierichardson

You are entirely wrong and are misrepresenting and misquoting me. Read my posts.

My references to seeing midwives over time was in response to people saying should women who are forced to remain pregnant by abusive partners have to have counselling. My answer was, at least in those circumstances they have some time to change their minds and opportunity to speak to midwives on more than one occasion.

Read the posts back. I am sorry but you have entirely misrepresented what I said.

[lyralalala]

I haven't ignored anyone. People have only said this is already happening in the last hour or so.

You have.

I posted what happens, including the conversations and offers of further conversation and counselling, in direct response to your “What happens then?” long before the thread was closed earlier.

[DecomposingComposers]

lyralalala

But it has only just been confirmed that every woman receives a counselling session, not just an offer of one. If I misunderstood you I apologise but I thought you meant it was offered but didn't necessarily happen.

[Dottierichardson]

Also your version of what would be appropriate counselling contradicts your so-called concern about health risks to women. Early abortions - which the vast majority are - are medical not surgical. Long, exhaustive counselling sessions - and who decides btw if a woman is finally parroting the right phrases so she can exercise her bodily autonomy? - could result in more surgical terminations - so more of the risks you say you don't women to take, as well as all the associated risks of using GA.

[lyralalala]

There’s a surprise.

[DecomposingComposers]

Dottierichardson

Will you stop lying about what you think I have said? Where have I said there should be long exhaustive counselling sessions?

I don't want that to happen, but whether it is a medical or surgical abortion it is still a medical procedure and certain safeguards have to happen.

What would you like to see? No checks at all? No medical intervention at all?

[lyralalala]

I love how you “misunderstand” but other people are “lying”.

What exactly do you want to happen that is not arrest happening?